OneDnD Rogue Playtest Discussion

[MarkB]

at level 13 you get Subtle Strikes giving you advantage when targeting a foe near an ally.

Which is nice, as it means you always have a chance to sneak attack an enemy if one of your allies is adjacent to them, since this negates disadvantage if you would have had it.

 

[Mistwell]

These two are the big nerfs I think are worth commenting on in the feedback. The others worry me less.
I am wondering where you see your #2? I missed it

It's not in the rogue but in the general package where critical hit damage is now only weapon damage. No spell damage, no sneak attack damage, no smite damage, no adders.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

I suspect that AoO will allow for an Attack action as a reaction instead of a single (low-key) attack.
For a while I've let martials use their full attack allotment on AoO and it made Disengaging and anti-AoO features much better. Rogues could already SA on AoO, Paladins could smite, caster could throw a spell with a feat etc, so having a high level fighter doing 4 attacks as an AoO once in a blue moon wasnt too bad.

 

[Mistwell]

Most obvious thing: nerf 1 is mostly for 5% of people. Those who have system mastery AND are willing to optimize their characters.

It's really not. It happened a lot more if you optimized, but it happened for all rogues with readied actions. There are some combats where readied actions are the only way to get an attack off, and if Rogues can't get their sneak attacks on those battles it will be a meaningful drop in their sense of effectiveness.

Rogues will now face the disconcerting set of circumstances where a foe is popping out from cover, shooting them with some special power, and popping back behind cover...while the Rogue cannot shoot back with their special power. Even if they have advantage. Even if they could have done that very thing if it were an attack taken on their initiative count instead of delaying their action to a different initiative count. How is a DM even supposed to explain how that's working?

Sneak attack impossible on an opportunity attack or reaction is the only thing that hurts a bit, but If think the Idea of cutting off specific builds is good.

But they didn't need to go this far. They could have allowed for it on readied actions, but not for other reactions. It would have been easy to do and the kind of exception-based rules they scatter throughout the rules already.

 

[Staffan]

Honestly, it feels like the stuff that's going away in this version are mostly things that weren't intended to be there in the first place. Take the whole "Sneak Attack once per Turn" thing. Yes, this means that to really maximize your Sneak Attack damage you want to be attacking on your opponents turns as much as possible, which leads you to stuff like three level dips into Fighter for Riposte or using Haste and only attacking with your Haste action so you can use your other one to Delay until someone else's turn. Everyone who's played with a player who's trying to optimize a Rogue has seen this stuff, but they've almost certainly also seen a new player who's completely mystified by the hoops someone is jumping through to make this happen. Maybe instead of leaving this loophole that many players will never find, they could set the power level of the Rogue's Sneak Attack damage at a point where it does the expected amount of damage without requiring these sort of hoops to be jumped through?

I never saw this particular cheese. What I did see, however, was dissonant whispers being cast on a target adjacent to both the rogue and another melee combatant, leading to the target running off, and the rogue getting Sneak Attack on the opportunity attack. This felt awesome for everyone involved, and I'm sad to see it go.

 

[Mistwell]

We'll have to wait and see the changes to Readied Action. It probably won't have changed substantially enough to allow Sneak Attack with Readied Actions, but it might (i.e. if they change Readied Action to a "delay your entire turn" feature).

Yes, you can. Not only can you add sneak attack damage on a critical hit, but the sneak attack damage is doubled just like it was in the 2014 PHB.

Nope. Crawford already explained this in the videos. Crits will no longer include sneak attack damage, spell damage, smite damage, or any dice other then actual weapon dice. This is definitely a change coming with this edition. I don't even think they're going to playtest it - they've said this is a thing they are doing. But maybe I am wrong and they will playtest it and open it up to a survey.

Steadied Aim might be an option still, just not printed in this book. It's a bit unclear, but I see no reason to say that it's not an option anymore.

Also, Subtle Strikes is not like Steady Aim in the slightest. It gives you advantage on the attack roll if you already have an ally within 5 feet of the enemy (which means you can still Sneak Attack if you would have had disadvantage on the Attack Roll). That's more like Flanking than Steady Aim.

It's pack tactics. The effect is the same, is all I was saying. It's a way to get advantage most of the time.

Because you get a subclass feature at level 6, which moves your additional Expertise from level 6 to level 7, which moves Evasion to level 9 (they couldn't have moved it to level 8, because that's when you get a feat). This certainly nerfs some of the Rogue, but I think it's an overall buff due to the subclass feature coming earlier (we'll have to see all of the subclasses in order to say for sure).

I am guessing rogue players would have been very happy to move the next set of expertise to a higher level instead.

2014's Reliable Talent would have only worked for Initiative if you were a Harengon.

That's right, sorry forgot about the proficiency bonus part. I have never gotten to 11th level with a rogue

That's not really a nerf. Longswords are practically useless for Rogues. They're not finesse or ranged weapons, so Rogues can't Sneak Attack with them. The only Longsword that Rogues can use effectively (the Sunblade) gives you proficiency in it if you have proficiency in Shortswords, which Rogues do have.

It's pretty minor. It's noteworthy just because of the high number of magical longswords found in published adventures. But I agree not very noteworthy, and whip makes a lot more sense of a rogue.

A) Yep. Huge buff for melee rogues.
B) Also a good buff. That was one of the few parts of the 2014 Rogue that I disliked. Waiting to get another subclass feature for 6 levels is painful.
C) Whips in the 2014 PHB are finesse, so this is a good buff if it stays that way. I always thought that Rogues should be the class that fills the Indiana Jones role.

Note: Thieves' Tools checks are now Sleight of Hand Checks. And, if you have proficiency in both Sleight of Hands and Thieves' Tools (which most Rogues will), then you have advantage and proficiency in all Thieves' Tools-based Sleight of Hand checks. That's another pretty significant buff.

Good one, thanks! I like that change.

 

[Mistwell]

I suspect that AoO will allow for an Attack action as a reaction instead of a single (low-key) attack.
For a while I've let martials use their full attack allotment on AoO and it made Disengaging and anti-AoO features much better. Rogues could already SA on AoO, Paladins could smite, caster could throw a spell with a feat etc, so having a high level fighter doing 4 attacks as an AoO once in a blue moon wasnt too bad.

That would help a lot but I have seen no hint of that upcoming. If so, it would do a lot to make me feel better about this change.

 

[Staffan]

As a lock picking "expert" myself, I can assure you, a youtube video and two paperclips will let you open a standard padlock in 20 minutes. Faster if you are lucky.
With a sport lockpick set you get it done in a few minutes or with some luck in 6 seconds.

It has taken me a while to understand 3e in that regard: if there is no time pressure, just allow the rogue to always take 20 and suddenly DCs work right out of the book without magic items and the rogue feels good and useful.

IRL, very few locks are absolute against someone who knows what they're doing. The point of a lock is not to provide an absolute barrier to opening a door, it is to provide a speed bump that will slow down a thief by a couple of minutes, thereby drastically increasing the chance that they're discovered. That, and to keep honest people honest.

 

[MarkB]

It's not in the rogue but in the general package where critical hit damage is now only weapon damage. No spell damage, no sneak attack damage, no smite damage, no adders.

That was only in the first playtest package. In the current one they've reverted to the standard critical hit rules.

 

[Mistwell]

That was only in the first playtest package. In the current one they've reverted to the standard critical hit rules.

Only because they wanted to try a different variant on the inspiration rule, not because they're returning to that critical hit portion about it being only weapon damage. Seems pretty clear they plan to stick with that change.

 

[Bill Zebub]

I am guessing rogue players would have been very happy to move the next set of expertise to a higher level instead.

This. I would much rather get Evasion earlier and 2 more expertise later.

 

[Kobold Stew]

It's not in the rogue but in the general package where critical hit damage is now only weapon damage. No spell damage, no sneak attack damage, no smite damage, no adders.

Ah, in the first package. Right. Thanks.

 

[Mistwell]

Another nerf as things stand right now: Rogues cannot get sneak attack with the Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade cantrip as both don't grant the Attack action, just an attack.

This would by the way disable my entire current rogue, which I've played since level 1 to level 8 now.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Another nerf as things stand right now: Rogues cannot get sneak attack with the Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade cantrip as both don't grant the Attack action, just an attack.

This would by the way disable my entire current rogue, which I've played since level 1 to level 8 now.

No one's mentioned that yet?

And it's entirely unsurprising. WotC seem to have nerfed everything martial that's way over their benchmark, buffed everything that's under and

The difference between a L8 rogue with Booming Blade and one without in melee is 1d8 damage on your primary attack and 2d8potential damage if they move. Which is a lot. It's almost as much as your sneak attack damage. (3d8 vs 4d6)

WotC don't mind there being some difference for skill - but they don't want it to be 50% damage increases or near doubling with offturn sneak attacks. They also don't want Crossbow Expert/Sharpshooter or various other massive combos. But want to open up lots of other stuff.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

No one's mentioned that yet?

3rd post in this thread, I bring it up, because I only recently realized how good the blade spells are for Rogue... while it's good that there isn't this pressure for every Rogue to pick up the melee cantrips because it's free damage, it's bad because Rogue just keeps losing things and not getting anything in return.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

Also, if Experts are the group that borrows stuff from other classes... Rangers copy Warriors and Druids, Bards copy healers and wizards... why is Rogue the one who isn't stealing anything?

 

[Neonchameleon]

3rd post in this thread, I bring it up, because I only recently realized how good the blade spells are for Rogue... while it's good that there isn't this pressure for every Rogue to pick up the melee cantrips because it's free damage, it's bad because Rogue just keeps losing things and not getting anything.

I wouldn't say rogue got nothing. Off the top of my head:

• Dual wielding melee rogues are now impressive; if the left don't get you then the right one will and you still Cunning Action
• They now have a subclass slot at level 6 while not losing any abilities for it (just a slight shuffle)
• Rogues benefit a lot from the feat upgrades. Skulker now giving both +1 Dex and Blindsight for rogues is huge. And Charger has some really good synergy with rogues. Sharpshooter was a much iffier prospect for rogues than other classes because you risked the Sneak Attack. And of course there's the fact you get them at all and rogues get an extra at L10 (which means with current Background/Standard Array rules you only spend 2 levels at Dex 19 with a standard build).

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Nope. Crawford already explained this in the videos. Crits will no longer include sneak attack damage, spell damage, smite damage, or any dice other then actual weapon dice. This is definitely a change coming with this edition. I don't even think they're going to playtest it - they've said this is a thing they are doing. But maybe I am wrong and they will playtest it and open it up to a survey.

Crawford also explained in the videos that the rules glossary of later UA supersedes the rules glossaries of earlier UA. The latest UA says to use the 2014 Crit rules, not the ones from the previous UA. You're wrong and you missed a substantial change in this UA. Rogues can still double Critical Sneak Attack damage. This is from the most recent UA's rules glossary (you can double check for yourself, just "CTRL + F" it):

Attack Roll
The Attack Roll is one of three types of d20 Tests. This Unearthed Arcana article uses the rules for attack rolls and critical hits found in the 2014 Player’s Handbook.

I hope this clears things up.

It's pack tactics. The effect is the same, is all I was saying. It's a way to get advantage most of the time.

It's actually more substantial than that. It means that so long as they have an ally within 5 feet of their target, they always get to sneak attack, because the advantage cancels out any potential disadvantages they might get. This helps a lot for ranged rogues that might have disadvantage from long range, from being within 5 feet of the enemy, being prone, restrained, or inflicted with some other debilitating condition.

This is a great buff.

I am guessing rogue players would have been very happy to move the next set of expertise to a higher level instead.

We'll have to wait until after the survey to find out! I personally think level 7 is a bit early to get "completely ignore Fireball most of the time", especially when you get an extra Subclass ability to make up for delaying the feature 2 levels, but I'd be fine with either.

That's right, sorry forgot about the proficiency bonus part. I have never gotten to 11th level with a rogue

Yep! So it's a smaller nerf than you thought! (Doesn't work on Initiative unless you're a bunnyman, doesn't work on Counterspell/Dispel Magic unless you're a level 10 Aburation Wizard multiclassed 11 levels into Rogue somehow, et cetera.) And, since tool checks are now based off of specific skills, that means that more tools are available with Reliable Talent. That's an overall buff, IMO.

It's pretty minor. It's noteworthy just because of the high number of magical longswords found in published adventures. But I agree not very noteworthy, and whip makes a lot more sense of a rogue.

So they gain the whip, which they can sneak attack with at reach, and lose the longsword, which is mostly useless to them because they can't sneak attack with it. I don't consider that a nerf.

Good one, thanks! I like that change.

Yep! I thought it was neat! Rogues basically get an extra Expertise because of this (they don't have to choose Thieves' Tools and Sleight of Hand to have proficiency with both, they get both just from choosing Thieves' Tools).

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Another nerf as things stand right now: Rogues cannot get sneak attack with the Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade cantrip as both don't grant the Attack action, just an attack.

This would by the way disable my entire current rogue, which I've played since level 1 to level 8 now.

It's actually still possible to sneak attack on Green Flame Blade/Booming Blade, but you have to multiclass 6 levels into Bladesinger to do so (so then you can cast a cantrip as part of the Attack Action).

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Rogue just keeps losing things and not getting anything in return.

Demonstrably untrue.

Here's what Rogues lost:

• Sneak Attack on a Reaction (which was probably not intended to work in the first place).
• Sneak Attack with Booming Blade/Green Flame Blade for any rogue of the right race/feat ability (also absolutely unintended). You can still Sneak Attack with Booming Blade/Green Flame Blade if you have 6 levels in Bladesinger, though.
• Longsword proficiency (largely useless anyway)
• Hand-Crossbow proficiency
• The option to gain Performance proficiency from their class skills (barely a nerf, you can always take it from your background skills)
• The ability to use Evasion when incapacitated (which was ridiculous anyway)
• Blindsense

They also had a couple features delayed by a level or two (the second Expertise feature was moved from level 6 to level 7, Evasion was moved from level 7 to level 9).

Here's what Rogues got in return:

• Automatic advantage when using Thieves' Tools at level 1 if you choose Sleight of Hand as one of your proficient skills from the class or a background (boosted up to advantage and Expertise if you choose Expertise in Sleight of Hand)
• An extra language at level 1 granted in addition to Thieves' Cant
• An extra feat at level 1 from your background (which other classes also get, but rogues from the 2014 PHB didn't, so it still counts as a buff to rogue characters transitioning from 5e to OneD&D)
• Whip Proficiency (which can be dual-wielded)
• An extra attack as part of the Attack Action if you dual wield (no longer taking your bonus action, which can be used for Cunning Action, which dual-wielding rogues previously couldn't do)
• An extra Subclass feature at level 6 (which is why Expertise and Evasion are delayed a bit)
• Earlier subclass features (Their level 13 feature is moved to level 10, their level 17 feature is moved to level 14)
• Expertise in more tools, because Tool Checks are now based on skills (this depends on what skills you have proficiency in)
• Reliable Talent on more tools, because Tool Checks are now based on skills (this also depends on what skills you have proficiency in)
• An extra feature at level 13, which makes it so if an ally is within 5 feet of the creature you're attacking, you will always sneak attack (and be more likely to crit sneak attack because you'll normally have advantage on the attack roll).
• Proficiency with Charisma Saving throws from Slippery Mind (meaning that you'll have 4 saving throw proficiencies automatically, which you can boost to up 5 if you have the Resilient Feat)
• Elusive at level 17 instead of level 18
• Stroke of Luck at level 18 instead of level 20
• An automatic Epic Boon at level 20 (which other classes also get, but rogues from the 2014 PHB didn't, so it still counts as a buff to rogue characters transitioning from 5e to OneD&D)

So, that's 7 nerfs, quite a few of which are fairly minor or situational and 14 buffs, quite a few of which are really big (Dual Wielding, an extra feat, buffs to tools, more and earlier subclass features, another saving throw proficiency, so on).

By my count, the Rogue class gets twice as many buffs as it gets nerfs. So "Rogues just keep losing things and not getting anything in return" is either a complete and utter lie or you somehow didn't notice any of the many buffs that they got.