D&D (2024) Rogue Playtest Discussion

[Neonchameleon]

The main obvious changes are that you get subclass features at levels 3, 6, 10, and 14 rather than 3, 9, 13, and 17 (which has required shuffling around your second expertise and evasion). Blindsense has gone (it's now a subability of a feat) and instead at level 13 you get Subtle Strikes giving you advantage when targeting a foe near an ally.

Thieves have been tweaked - but you get the abilities earlier. You no longer get "use an object" as a bonus action, instead getting search. And you now get a climb speed and jump based on Dex at L3. Supreme Sneak came down from 9th to 6th level and straight up gives you advantage on stealth checks. All of them no matter how fast you move. UMD changed - no more using Holy Avengers, but you get more atunement slots and more charges on charged items. And thief's reflexes is more bonus actions.

In general solid changes all round, with nothing earthshattering that I see. The "more regular subclass abilities" is just nice - as is knowing they are rewriting them (assassins need this - and this version of the thief is just better polished)

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Not having use an option severely makes the subclass a lot more unfun. Especially with the new twf rules, use an object just to draw one more dagger would be incredibly useful.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

With them floating playtest1's critical changes as a possibility, it just looks like Rogue can only lose things. Sneak attack criticals, sneak attacks with Booming Blade, Thief's whole selling point of using objects as a bonus action...

 

[rooneg]

With them floating playtest1's critical changes as a possibility, it just looks like Rogue can only lose things. Sneak attack criticals, sneak attacks with Booming Blade, Thief's whole selling point of using objects as a bonus action...

Note that the criticals work with sneak attack in this version of the playtest, and to be perfectly frank I think this version of the thief is way more appealing than the "use objects as a bonus action" version.

Agreed though, it's unfortunate that stuff like Booming Blade doesn't currently work with Sneak Attack as written. I'd like to see a tweak to those spells to make them work with things that trigger off the Attack action.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

I'm not necessarily saying that every Rogue should get sneaks off of Booming Blade, because that forms a situation where Rogues that don't go the magical way get penalized... But just losing features and not getting anything new for it, definitely doesn't feel good.

 

[rooneg]

Honestly, it feels like the stuff that's going away in this version are mostly things that weren't intended to be there in the first place. Take the whole "Sneak Attack once per Turn" thing. Yes, this means that to really maximize your Sneak Attack damage you want to be attacking on your opponents turns as much as possible, which leads you to stuff like three level dips into Fighter for Riposte or using Haste and only attacking with your Haste action so you can use your other one to Delay until someone else's turn. Everyone who's played with a player who's trying to optimize a Rogue has seen this stuff, but they've almost certainly also seen a new player who's completely mystified by the hoops someone is jumping through to make this happen. Maybe instead of leaving this loophole that many players will never find, they could set the power level of the Rogue's Sneak Attack damage at a point where it does the expected amount of damage without requiring these sort of hoops to be jumped through?

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I'm not necessarily saying that every Rogue should get sneaks off of Booming Blade, because that forms a situation where Rogues that don't go the magical way get penalized... But just losing features and not getting anything new for it, definitely doesn't feel good.

I think, in the end, it is better that way, although now not going twf is somehow dumb. But we don't know how everything works together, even if the picture is getting a bit clearer.
We will probanly get asked about that. Lets take part in the survey and tell them about our concerns.

 

[Krachek]

Honestly, it feels like the stuff that's going away in this version are mostly things that weren't intended to be there in the first place. Take the whole "Sneak Attack once per Turn" thing. Yes, this means that to really maximize your Sneak Attack damage you want to be attacking on your opponents turns as much as possible, which leads you to stuff like three level dips into Fighter for Riposte or using Haste and only attacking with your Haste action so you can use your other one to Delay until someone else's turn. Everyone who's played with a player who's trying to optimize a Rogue has seen this stuff, but they've almost certainly also seen a new player who's completely mystified by the hoops someone is jumping through to make this happen. Maybe instead of leaving this loophole that many players will never find, they could set the power level of the Rogue's Sneak Attack damage at a point where it does the expected amount of damage without requiring these sort of hoops to be jumped through?

Optimizer will have hard time to find new combo.
Sneak attack is now restrained.
no more -5/+10
Even polearm master and sentinel dont work no more.
They are flattening the power level.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

Okay, wording in Fast Hands...
Sleight of Hand. Make a Dexterity Check (Sleight
of Hand) to pick a lock or disarm a trap with
Thieves’ Tools or to pick a pocket.

Regular lockpicking is just Dexterity + Thieves' Tools. This however lets you do a Sleight of Hand check with Thieves' Tools, and skill + tool = advantage. As Expertise now only lets you apply it to skills, you cannot expertise Thieves' Tools anymore, so Thief looks like the best burglar!

(yes, they might be changing lockpicking to be Sleight of Hand for everyone, but we work with what we are given)

 

[TerraDave]

The thief really feels like a thief, now. I know players for years...decades...that wanted to make characters like this but found it strangely hard to do.

And you can always have the 1 blade drawn.