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<blockquote data-quote="Kobold Stew" data-source="post: 8789137" data-attributes="member: 23484"><p>There's some dodgy counting here, so let's look at this.</p><p>1.</p><p></p><p>I see this as a nerf. They used to be the only class who could get expertise in thieves tools. Now any expert class can get this advantage. In fact, none of the tool points are rogue-specific, which also excludes</p><p></p><p>2. You list a number of benefits all classes get:</p><p></p><p>So that's not about the rogue either (as you recognize)</p><p></p><p>3.</p><p></p><p>Has to be seen in terms of the overall change of weapon proficiencies. So of all the rogues you've seen, how many used hand crossbow as their main weapon? I've seen many, and think this is overall a nerf.</p><p></p><p>4. You are selective about presenting changes in specific abilities, too.</p><p></p><p>counts as a boon for you, but no mention is made of losing Bonus action for Use and Object at level 3. Which one affects play more over the course of a campaign? Overall, a nerf. [EDIT: <em>I see you've answered this in the previous post, written while I was typing</em>]</p><p></p><p>5. You list three benefits with getting abilities early....</p><p></p><p>...but exclude the ones delayed from your count</p><p></p><p>I'll note that early game abilities are delayed, late game abilities put earlier. Overall, it's a nerf.</p><p></p><p>6. There is a change in abilities -- Blindsense at 14 has become Pack tactics at 13; obth are valuable. I'll call that a wash.</p><p></p><p></p><p>7. Changes to Sneak Attack.</p><p>As has been discussed in this thread, there are several changes to the iconic Rogue ability. You list two cases</p><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">without acknowledging how much the first one excludes: Ready an Action, opportunity attacks, or a Battlemaster's Commander's Strike. That is not inconsequential.</li> </ul><p>In addition, if the rules for Critical Strike from the first playtest pack are kept, then Sneak attack dice do not double on a crit. So that's another substantial nerf. (Many would count that as two nerfs, but let's be conservative).</p><p></p><p>8. I am not concerned about two of the abilities lost that you list</p><p></p><p>so let's discount them. As you note, there is an extra language.</p><p></p><p>So there's a boon. That'll be a game changer.</p><p></p><p>9. And there is a genuine boon for two-weapon fighters:</p><p></p><p></p><p>So let's summarize:</p><p></p><p>Of the 9 categories of changes, some are a wash and I'll exclude (2, 6).</p><p></p><p>For boons:</p><p>You get a language (8) and have a better chance of getting your sneak attack damage if you are a dual wielder (9).</p><p></p><p>For losses:</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Thieves tool specialties are no longer a rogue ability (1)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Changes in weapon proficiencies are overall a loss (3)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Changes in specific abilities helps late-game abilities but hurts early-game ones (4)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Abilities that are delayed are in levels 1-10, ones that come earlier are in 11-20, and so keep most players from them (5)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Sneak attack has been weakened in multiple ways (7).</li> </ul><p>(There is no doubt more that could be added, too).</p><p></p><p>In my mind, it is clear that the Rogue has lost significantly with this package.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I am sure you are very sincere in your counting here, and believe that your numbers are balanced and accurate. I hope you can at least see why someone might disagree with the way you have reckoned these things.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Kobold Stew, post: 8789137, member: 23484"] There's some dodgy counting here, so let's look at this. 1. I see this as a nerf. They used to be the only class who could get expertise in thieves tools. Now any expert class can get this advantage. In fact, none of the tool points are rogue-specific, which also excludes 2. You list a number of benefits all classes get: So that's not about the rogue either (as you recognize) 3. Has to be seen in terms of the overall change of weapon proficiencies. So of all the rogues you've seen, how many used hand crossbow as their main weapon? I've seen many, and think this is overall a nerf. 4. You are selective about presenting changes in specific abilities, too. counts as a boon for you, but no mention is made of losing Bonus action for Use and Object at level 3. Which one affects play more over the course of a campaign? Overall, a nerf. [EDIT: [I]I see you've answered this in the previous post, written while I was typing[/I]] 5. You list three benefits with getting abilities early.... ...but exclude the ones delayed from your count I'll note that early game abilities are delayed, late game abilities put earlier. Overall, it's a nerf. 6. There is a change in abilities -- Blindsense at 14 has become Pack tactics at 13; obth are valuable. I'll call that a wash. 7. Changes to Sneak Attack. As has been discussed in this thread, there are several changes to the iconic Rogue ability. You list two cases [LIST] [*]without acknowledging how much the first one excludes: Ready an Action, opportunity attacks, or a Battlemaster's Commander's Strike. That is not inconsequential. [/LIST] In addition, if the rules for Critical Strike from the first playtest pack are kept, then Sneak attack dice do not double on a crit. So that's another substantial nerf. (Many would count that as two nerfs, but let's be conservative). 8. I am not concerned about two of the abilities lost that you list so let's discount them. As you note, there is an extra language. So there's a boon. That'll be a game changer. 9. And there is a genuine boon for two-weapon fighters: So let's summarize: Of the 9 categories of changes, some are a wash and I'll exclude (2, 6). For boons: You get a language (8) and have a better chance of getting your sneak attack damage if you are a dual wielder (9). For losses: [LIST] [*]Thieves tool specialties are no longer a rogue ability (1) [*]Changes in weapon proficiencies are overall a loss (3) [*]Changes in specific abilities helps late-game abilities but hurts early-game ones (4) [*]Abilities that are delayed are in levels 1-10, ones that come earlier are in 11-20, and so keep most players from them (5) [*]Sneak attack has been weakened in multiple ways (7). [/LIST] (There is no doubt more that could be added, too). In my mind, it is clear that the Rogue has lost significantly with this package. I am sure you are very sincere in your counting here, and believe that your numbers are balanced and accurate. I hope you can at least see why someone might disagree with the way you have reckoned these things. [/QUOTE]
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