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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Levistus's_Leviathan" data-source="post: 8789207" data-attributes="member: 7023887">What in the world? How is a buff to other classes a nerf for the rogue?!?! That's not nerfing the rogue, that's making everyone better. Especially the rogue, because they get more skills than basically anyone else. Um, no. Not all classes get Expertise. Just the Rogue, Bard, and Ranger. And no other class gets Reliable Talent.OneD&D Rogues that take Proficiency and Expertise in Sleight of Hand get the following benefits to their Thieves' Tools:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Proficiency in Thieves' Tools (which everyone that takes proficiency in Thieves' Tools can get)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Expertise in Thieves' Tools (which only Bards, Rangers, and Rogues that choose Expertise in Sleight of Hand can get)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Advantage in Thieves Tools checks (which anyone with proficiency in both Thieves' Tools and Sleight of Hand can get)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Reliable Talent in Thieves' Tools (which only Rogues get)</li> </ul>So, rogues are buffed compared to the 2014 version. They just have to choose Proficiency and Expertise in Sleight of Hand, and then they get all of that. No one else can get Reliable Talent and Bards/Rangers that want to get Expertise-Advantage in Thieves' Tools have to use their Background Tool's Proficiency. Rogues are still better at Lockpicking/Trap-Disarming than anyone else and are better than they were in the 2014 PHB at it. Does that matter? That's a buff compared to the 2014 Ranger. A buff is a buff. We have to assume that they're keeping Whips as Finesse based on our current information. None, actually. One used a longbow, the other dual wielded, and the other was a Soul Knife. I see your edit, but subclasses were not taken into account in the Class nerf/buff breakdown. We have to wait and see the other subclasses to see if they were nerfed/buffed overall. You know what? You're right here. I should have included that and was thinking of editing my post. Noted. I don't take multiclassing into account when breaking down if a Class got Nerfed/Buffed. That would be ridiculous. And Readying an Action and Opportunity Attacks are situational nerfs. And I noted those were nerfs. I don't know what your problem is here.They are not. I proved that in an earlier post. There is no nerf here. I noted the minor nerfs (Performance, no Evasion on Expertise), and also noted the minor buffs (extra language). What's your problem with this?Again, it's ridiculous that you're considering this a "nerf" to rogues. Strictly comparing how good 2014 Rogues and OneD&D Rogues are at Thieves' Tools, it's 100% objectively true that Rogues got buffed here. They get the benefits of two expertise and Reliable Talent for the price of one and always-on advantage on Thieves' Tools. Who cares if Bards/Rangers can mimic what you're good at? They're not as good at it as you are from their base class features and you're better than you were previously at it! "Overall a loss"? Bro, the Longsword is useless to rogues. Sure, losing the Hand Crossbow hurts a bit, but Whips make up for it, IMO. Dual Wielding rogues can sneak attack in melee from 10 feet away now. That's a huge boost. That frees up your bonus action even more than the already mentioned boost to Dual Wielding, because most monsters have a reach of 5 feet and so you get to avoid even more attacks than non-whip dual-wielding Rogues. So they're making the classes less front-loaded and are showing signs of supporting high-level play better. While not a buff, it's definitely a positive in my book. By "multiple" you mean "two". And one of them is highly situational (Opportunity Attacks and other reaction attacks) and the other is 100% unintentional (Green-Flame/Booming Blade).  They lost a bit of damage in cheesy exploits and highly situational reaction attacks. And I think that you also believe the same.</blockquote>

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