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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mistwell" data-source="post: 8789459" data-attributes="member: 2525">Then don't.I am saying it should be discounted quite a bit because it impacts so few players. If it's amazing but comes at a level so high few will ever see it, it's not a meaningful retort to the loss of a power than came at 3rd level. Even if it were much better than the power that came at 3rd level.Yes, I fully understand how it works and what you just repeated is exactly what I said that you are responding to. I said also you cannot any longer get expertise in the tool itself where you could before, which is also correct. Nothing I said is incorrect. Maybe you misunderstood?Yes I understood that fully Do you understand you cannot get expertise in tools now, where you could before? Do you understand before you could get expertise in investigation used on a trap and expertise on thieves tools used to disarm that same trap, but now you can only get expertise in a skill but not the tool? What you think is "major" I think is mostly inconsequential. I saw someone else reply in a similar manner with great detail. So you must see by now your view on that topic isn't universal even when thoughtfully considered.No, I didn't. I was very clear in my intent in why I mentioned it. I'll also note your continual spin of things like this, where it's clear my intent by you twist it to be a negative anyway, looks to be bad faith to me. If you understood why I was bringing it up, and then decide to claim it's a fallacy anyway, it tells me you're not here to discuss this matter fairly, but you're here to "win" an argument. I am not interested in that game. Go play it with someone else.I didn't. I even repeated it back to you and you missed I had done that. Have you considered we're all as capable of assessing these rules as you are, and you could in fact sometimes be wrong as well?I truly don't care what you think we should be discussing, I, and many others, will assess it in terms of the whole game, including relative to other classes. If you want to analyze it differently, go right ahead. But don't tell us we're wrong for taking other things into consideration like relative balance compared to other classes. For me, and I think for very many others, if something like a first level feat benefits all classes at once, then it's not a boost for Rogues. You've made that clear. It is however very important to me and many others. You can deal with that or not, but it's a reality for many people you're having this conversation with.</blockquote>

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