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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Levistus's_Leviathan" data-source="post: 8789890" data-attributes="member: 7023887">I wasn't. I truly don't have an opinion on whether or not they're going to change it back to the older playtest version. But I think it's bad form for you to assume they are in this discussion. And I'm saying that when you're discussing the overall power of the full class that it's just as valid to count the buffs/nerfs that come at higher levels than it is to count the ones at lower levels and to discount the ones from higher levels just because they're higher levels is dumb. Okay then, why were you stating that then? I thought you were saying it was a nerf/bad thing. It clearly is not. It's 100% a buff. . . . There are objectively "major" changes. Losing longswords is a very, very minor nerf. There's basically no situation where losing proficiency in longswords is even slightly a bad thing, unless the rogue somehow has a magical longsword that deals more magical damage than they would sneak attack damage. Losing longswords is a minor nerf. Losing the bonus action tax of Dual Wielding is a major buff for a lot of Rogues. Some other things are more campaign-dependent, but there are major and minor buffs. Then why were you remarking that other people shared your opinion. You're right that it doesn't make you any more correct than me. And I'm aware that it is a common viewpoint. So if you don't think that it made your opinion more valid, why was it important to mention? At least to me, you didn't make it clear of your intention. And I'm comparing the pure numbers of how current rogues compare to PHB rogues. I don't think that we're able of discussing how they compare to other classes until we get all of the other classes for comparison. We have to make do with what information we have. Which are the current Bard and Ranger and the Rogue. I think it's important to show all of the ways that the class was buffed and nerfed compared to the 2014 PHB version, and I would do that in a breakdown of how the Bards and Rangers got nerfed/buffed in other discussions. Sure, they cancel out if other classes get the buffs, but they're still buffs compared to the 2014 version, so it's worth mentioning.</blockquote>

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