Pathfinder 1E Rogue with ranged weapon and standing from prone

[darjr]

Yea, let him have his fun. Though I think some of the bad guys would ready an action and attack at range when he pops up again, after all it's going to be the same spot every time, that is if the bad guys get a second chance.

 

[knottyprof]

Really? Granted a rogue's got Evasion, but "definitely a threat???" Most of what a rogue can do can be performed by most any class. Nobody in our group will even play a rogue - better to be an urban ranger, or someone who as a real AC and chance to hit things. Anybody can take disable device, and half the other classes has trapfinding as an option. Most people agree that a PF rogue is a pretty useless thing. Its better to be a ninja.

Although it's 3PP, the best "sniper" in the game is a Samurai (yabusame archetype) .

Compared to 3.5, the pathfinder rogue version is much more versitile when it comes to combat. Sure, they are still skill monkeys but with a d8 instead of a d6 they are a little more robust and the sneak attack ability to arbitrarily add 1d6+ dice damage from a single attack isn't too shabby. Add rogue talents that allow the character to gain additional combat feats or ability to cast arcane spells I think they could be somewhat of a threat. Other than the bard, the class is probably one of the closest to a jack of all trades type class.

Ninja = eastern rogue.

 

[gamerprinter]

Compared to 3.5, the pathfinder rogue version is much more versitile when it comes to combat. Sure, they are still skill monkeys but with a d8 instead of a d6 they are a little more robust and the sneak attack ability to arbitrarily add 1d6+ dice damage from a single attack isn't too shabby. Add rogue talents that allow the character to gain additional combat feats or ability to cast arcane spells I think they could be somewhat of a threat. Other than the bard, the class is probably one of the closest to a jack of all trades type class.

Ninja = eastern rogue.

Yes, but in 3.5 rogues were kind of exclusive in getting access to all the various 'rogue' skills like Hide, Move Silently, Disable Device, etc. Two changes in PF skill system has marginalized rogues somewhat. One - by combining skills like Hide in Shadows and Move Silently to Stealth it's cheaper skill point wise for anybody not just the rogue to spend points in one skill than be forced to spend the same on mulitiple skills. Two - in 3.5 taking a skill that wasn't a class skill cost double, which really limited access to classes that didn't get 'rogue-based' skills and made it too expensive to waste skill points in doing so. However in Pathfinder, the difference in class skills is +3 modifier and it doesn't cost double for a fighter to choose Stealth to spend skill points.

While I definitely love the combined skill sets, and elimination of the double cost for non-class skills in Pathfinder, especially regarding non-rogue classes. This change has definitely taken some of the unique skill monkey aspects away from rogues, thus somewhat marginalizing them.

And while I can agree that being d8 instead of d6 gives rogues more hit points, d4 class HD is gone altogether, so rogues are still equivalent as a lower HD class, because all classes were improved with this change (except for Fighters and Barbarians of course, who didn't get an HD improvement). If your opponent is a monster, it might seem the rogue is better off, but often times your opponent is an NPC with class levels and not a monster at all, so the advantage is nullified since your opponent has better HD than it's 3.5 counterpart as well. Incidentally, PF monsters tend to be better too.

While I'm a fan of oriental based games - I am the primary developer of the Kaidan setting of Japanese horror (PFRPG) as an imprint under Rite Publishing. The ninja by it's name and Ki pool may seem oriental, it's hardly a slight fluff change to call a ninja a spy or an assassin and altering Ki to some other more western styled power point pool. Ninja is just a word, but the PF class ninja needn't be oriental at all. It fits all kinds of stealth based concepts that doesn't have to be relegated to oriental settings only.

Right now there is someone in our current game that's playing a ninja, yet under the concept of being an elite spy and provocateur for a western based espionage organization. In no way is his character 'oriental', despite being a ninja.

YMMV of course.

 

[knottyprof]

You can clothe a "ninja" in western apparel, but the flavor is definitely oriental starting with the Ki Pool, Ki (chi) being an oriental/eastern religious/martial concept. Not an expert or anything but taken enough karate and watched enough kung-fu theatre to know that much, definitely an Eastern/Oriental flavor class. But I digress.

If you line up the Ninja's level ability list to the Rogue's list they are nearly identical. The ninja seems to have more abilities related to stealth and hiding while the rogue gets trap finding and trap sense. Ninja Tricks are pretty much equal to rogue talents (in fact the ninja can choose a rogue talent as a ninja trick).

So if a ninja can be considered a threat, why wouldn't the rogue? From the OP, it would suggest that the rogue is being very effective as a sniper to the point some where questioning whether or not the rogue's actions were actually within the guidelines of the rules.

 

[Gfreak2x9]

This appears to be within the rules as far as I can tell! In fact it even seems to be a pretty good tactic. Lay on his stomach, jump up, shoot arrows, hit the deck, nobody saw who dun it! I give props to this guy for thinking of that tactic, and I myself would have no problem adding it to my campaign!

 

[Starfox]

Also, although standing up is a free action on the rogues part, it does provoke attacks of opportunity. Just have a few opponents sneak up or appear behind him when he decides to do the pop up and fire routine.

Is this right? I thought free/swift actions generally did not trigger attacks of opportunity. Quickened spells don't. But maybe that is a special rule for them.

 

[adembroski]

A few quick relevant items...

Free Action

Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.


Attacks of Opportunity

Generally, if you cast a spell, you provoke attacks of opportunity from threatening enemies. If you take damage from an attack of opportunity, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + points of damage taken + the spell's level) or lose the spell. Spells that require only a free action to cast don't provoke attacks of opportunity.

Free Actions

Free actions don't take any time at all, though there may be limits to the number of free actions you can perform in a turn. Free actions rarely incur attacks of opportunity.

My ruling would be to permit the action, and that getting up from prone does provoke an attack of opportunity. Also, when prone, evasion does not apply.

 

[N'raac]

A few quick relevant items...

Free Action

Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.


Attacks of Opportunity

Generally, if you cast a spell, you provoke attacks of opportunity from threatening enemies. If you take damage from an attack of opportunity, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + points of damage taken + the spell's level) or lose the spell. Spells that require only a free action to cast don't provoke attacks of opportunity.

Free Actions

Free actions don't take any time at all, though there may be limits to the number of free actions you can perform in a turn. Free actions rarely incur attacks of opportunity.

My ruling would be to permit the action, and that getting up from prone does provoke an attack of opportunity. Also, when prone, evasion does not apply.

First off, I appreciate your cite of the rules which lead you to your conclusions. The best rulings, at least in my experience, start with the rules we know, and apply their logic to rule on questions not directly answered. To me, that's the key reason to make a ruling now (in game, to minimize delays), but look it up in detail after the game and adjust as neede for future. In fact, our group has often adopted a policy hat, when working with a new system, you look up the rule even when you think you know it. This helps locate those minor changes between editions (eg. from 3.5 to Pathfinder), even if it means the game runs a bit slower in early play. This also helps those who are, perhaps, less rules-savvy pick up on some of the uncommon (but still frequently encountered) rules.

Prone

The character is lying on the ground. A prone attacker has a –4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow). A prone defender gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks, but takes a –4 penalty to AC against melee attacks.

Standing up is a move-equivalent action that provokes an attack of opportunity.

Helpless
A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.

As a full-round action, an enemy can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe. An enemy can also use a bow or crossbow, provided he is adjacent to the target. The attacker automatically hits and scores a critical hit. (A rogue also gets his sneak attack damage bonus against a helpless foe when delivering a coup de grace.) If the defender survives, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity.

Evasion

A character that has the Evasion ability can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the character is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless character does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Applying the Above

I think it's reasonable to rule that standing up, even as a free action, provokes an attack of opportunity. My own ruling would require reading the ability which provides the rogue the ability to stand as a free action. Looking a little further, I'm thinking this is likely the the rogue talent Stand Up, which specifically states it still provokes AoO. Given that, and given many rogue talents match or provide feats, I would assume any other feat-equivalent ability to stand as a free action still provokes AoO. Were it not for that rogue talent, I would consider either ruling equally reasonable, but that ability seems to settle the matter from my perspective.

It seems to me a prone rogue does not meet the terms of losing his evasion ability. In fact, it seems qite in keeping with the source material for a prone rogue to roll or tumble out of the way of danger as a use of evasion. While there are drawbacks to being prone, he's still a long way from helpless.

 

[delericho]

This appears to be within the rules as far as I can tell!

Yep. Free action + full attack + free action, perfectly legit.

However...

Lay on his stomach, jump up, shoot arrows, hit the deck, nobody saw who dun it!

The bit that I've bolded is not correct, however. If you attack, you break Stealth. There is an exception listed, appropriately enough under the heading "sniping", but this is only possible if you make one attack. So the Rogue can indeed take his actions, but he loses Stealth.

Oh, and note also that the moment the Rogue jumps up (prior to his attack), he breaks Stealth. Which means that he does not get the benefit of Sneak Attack on any of his attacks (not even the first one). Unless, of course, his opponent is flat-footed or otherwise denied his Dex bonus to AC.

 

[knottyprof]

Per Rogue Class Description for the Rogue Talent in question

Stand Up (Ex): A rogue with this ability can stand up from a prone position as a free action. This still provokes attacks of opportunity for standing up while threatened by a foe.

So for this instance, though standing is a free action, it does provoke if an opponent is within range to threaten.