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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ruin Explorer" data-source="post: 9218198" data-attributes="member: 18">Fun is subjective and I'm sorry, you literally cannot use it in a rational argument about classes and how functional they are. It's an active abandonment of the subject of the discussion. Especially as no matter how bad a class is, objectively, someone will claim it's fun - this is a long lesson from RPGs of all kinds - just look at 2E's long-forgotten Mystic. A totally terrible class in every way - but someone thought it was "fun".As for "versatile", no, not really. Rogues are extremely un-versatile. They rely entirely on Skills, and lean hard on the few skills they have Expertise or Reliable Talent, which they cannot change (unless I've missed something).Perception is not reality. Neither of those things is actually true. Rogues don't deal great damage. That your play group doesn't appreciate this is fine, but it just suggests they're not paying very close attention, and instead being dazzled by multiple dice being rolled. Rogues are pretty middling, damage-wise, compared to other martials. And they certainly do not "make all the skill checks", because they don't have Expertise or particularly Reliable Talent in enough skills for that to be true.It can be wildly overstated, too, though. And it kind of looks like your play group is wildly overstating it.Rogues get 2 more proficiencies than others, but no that doesn't "actually do something" in most cases, because the Rogue will only be the best person to be rolling in a few cases. It usually means they just have a couple of skills where they're okay but worse than another PC (i.e. any STR class for Athletics, any WIS class for Perception, any CHA class for social skills). They absolutely cannot "hit some really amazing DCs with ease" at lower levels. Expertise doubles prof bonus, but whilst that's nice, RNG on d20s is enough that it doesn't reliably give you the rolls you need. Reliable Talent does - but you don't get it until level 11 in 2014, by which point an awful lot of what the Rogue would be good for can be replaced by 100% reliable magic spells which cannot fail.What you're illustrating is what has held Rogues back in every edition except 4E, which is an unreasonable perception, one detached from the realities of the game, that Rogues are "OP". Whilst players might hold such a belief and be forgiven, if game designers do, we're all in trouble.It's been widely discussed/debated as one of the weakest classes in 5E on these boards and elsewhere since 5E came out. So that's curious.</blockquote>

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