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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ruin Explorer" data-source="post: 9218256" data-attributes="member: 18">The guy in my main group who habitually played Rogues since early 2E finally quit playing Rogues in 5E, because they were just not very effective and he wasn't having much fun when even with Expertise he was missing rolls. We got to 15 with that party and Reliable Talent was really nice for a while but we had casters in the party and magic resolves so many problems that it wasn't as big a boost as one might expect.I think they need to make it so you get Reliable Talent with specific skills at a much, much lower level than 11. If someone wants to make it so it's virtually impossible for them to get a really bad Stealth roll or the like with Expertise and Reliable Talent on the same skill, more power to them. I forget if 2024 is actually doing that.No, it isn't, because we're talking about how Rogues are balanced mechanically, and perceptions are subjective anyway. One man's "Fun class!" is another man's "Why the hell are you calling 2E Mystic 'fun'"?Uh-huh, but when a class isn't very good, fewer people who actually play it think that. What I've seen if that people who don't play Rogues, don't want them to be changed or improved, and often think they're overpowered. People who do actually play them are much more likely to want them improved, and to recognise the issues with them.What extra flexibility? As I've demonstrated, Rogues aren't actually very flexible. That's one of the curious things about their design in 5E. Their damage is mediocre to bad. They thus fail to fulfil the "class fantasy" of the deadly assassin or the like (and D&D 5E has no mechanics to support that outside combat). In combat, they have some mobility, but don't have OA protection which limits it's value, and have to be constantly focused on making sure their bonus damage (Sneak Attack) is available at all, whereas for most classes, it's just a given, because it's coming from multiple attacks. Rogue is a class that has to work hard just to stay worse than other classes who do not have to work hard. Outside combat they face the fact that at lower levels, D&D's skill system doesn't really reward skill investment very well, it primarily rewards lucky rolls, and whilst the gap between them and others increases at higher levels on skill rolls, they then start losing out to magic simply invalidating the need for skill rolls, and that magic works 100% of the time, doesn't even require a roll.I think at the very least Rogues should be hitting the class fantasy of being able to totally murderise a single target, but they really aren't.</blockquote>

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