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<blockquote data-quote="Ruin Explorer" data-source="post: 9218503" data-attributes="member: 18">I'm failing to comprehend how most of this makes them genuinely &quot;flexible&quot;. Flexible implies you can do a variety different things, serve a variety of different roles. That is one thing a Rogue cannot do. They are a skill monkey (a slightly better one in 2024 thanks to L7 reliable talent meaning it'll be seen in 5x as many campaigns as at L11) and mediocre to bad damage dealer and that's the end of the story. That's not like a Wizard who can pull out a bazillion different spells to do a bazillion different things - hell, unless that RIDICULOUS Wizard ability from packet 7 got zapped, Rogues going to get made to look even worse in 2024 (the innocuously named &quot;Memorize Spell&quot; aka never memorize a utility spell again). Nor like a Bard who can do skills, cast spells, fight, and talk. Rogues are a relatively specialized class. There's a grade curve here, and Rogues are getting a C- at best on flexibility, where others are getting As and Bs.And almost any martial can do the ranged/melee thing - just remember to pack the right weapons. Looks like they lost the 30ft limit which made them objectively worse at Ranged than other classes at least.Re: Cunning Strike, sure, and what does it cost them? Damage. So they're going to be doing even less damage, and acting even more as assistants to the &quot;real&quot; damage dealers like the Fighters, Barbarians, Warlocks, Sorcerers and also now Monks it appears. It's a bizarre conception of a Rogue - not deadly, not death-dealing, but helping out people who do that!I will say the Thief-specific use object ability, now it longer sucks (there was a period in the 2024 test in which it didn't allow magic items) does offer some real flexibility so long as your DM hands over enough magic items that it can actually be used. But that's one subclass.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Ruin Explorer, post: 9218503, member: 18"] I'm failing to comprehend how most of this makes them genuinely "flexible". Flexible implies you can do a variety different things, serve a variety of different roles. That is one thing a Rogue cannot do. They are a skill monkey (a slightly better one in 2024 thanks to L7 reliable talent meaning it'll be seen in 5x as many campaigns as at L11) and mediocre to bad damage dealer and that's the end of the story. That's not like a Wizard who can pull out a bazillion different spells to do a bazillion different things - hell, unless that RIDICULOUS Wizard ability from packet 7 got zapped, Rogues going to get made to look even worse in 2024 (the innocuously named "Memorize Spell" aka never memorize a utility spell again). Nor like a Bard who can do skills, cast spells, fight, and talk. Rogues are a relatively specialized class. There's a grade curve here, and Rogues are getting a C- at best on flexibility, where others are getting As and Bs. And almost any martial can do the ranged/melee thing - just remember to pack the right weapons. Looks like they lost the 30ft limit which made them objectively worse at Ranged than other classes at least. Re: Cunning Strike, sure, and what does it cost them? Damage. So they're going to be doing even less damage, and acting even more as assistants to the "real" damage dealers like the Fighters, Barbarians, Warlocks, Sorcerers and also now Monks it appears. It's a bizarre conception of a Rogue - not deadly, not death-dealing, but helping out people who do that! I will say the Thief-specific use object ability, now it longer sucks (there was a period in the 2024 test in which it didn't allow magic items) does offer some real flexibility so long as your DM hands over enough magic items that it can actually be used. But that's one subclass. [/QUOTE]

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