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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ruin Explorer" data-source="post: 9230417" data-attributes="member: 18">That's only possible below high level if you didn't have a STR character with Athletics, let alone any other bonuses to grappling. The math is very simple.STR 8 = -1Athletics Expertise = +4 at L1-4Total +3STR 16 = +3Athletics Proficiency = +2 at L1-4Total +5Assuming you didn't increase your STR but the STR character would, at L9 things look like:STR 8 = -1Athletics Expertise = +8 at L9-12Total +8STR 20 = +5Athletics Proficiency = +4 at L9-12Total +9Still worse.So at level 9, when the Proficiency bonus increases again, you're still worse than a generic STR character who didn't take Expertise. At level 11 (7 in playtest) you pull ahead in average total terms because of Reliable Talent. But that's only if the other character has no other benefits to grappling.Given most games end by level 10, and even most campaigns end around 9-12, you're blowing an Expertise slot to be a slightly below-par grappler, if that's why you're doing it (it makes more sense to put Expertise in Athletics because many Rogues make a lot of Athletics checks when climbing etc. than because of grappling).No, it doesn't. It simply mathematically doesn't. This is a false claim. They generally have lower totals than other PCs in non-DEX skills unless they take Expertise, in which case if they have a positive stat they can narrow pip them at the post, but it rarely makes sense to do so.What gives Rogues a real boost is Reliable Talent because that does apply to all skills. When that was at L11 it was fairly pointless as most campaigns were over or winding down by then, but at L7 it'll see a bit more play.Meaningless.They can get it from a Background, and given Custom Backgrounds are intended to be the norm (word of god from WotC themselves), that's just an irrelevance. It's literally disingenuous. This isn't BG3.Once you get to L11 or L7, depending on version, sure, Reliable Talent is extremely powerful in a system as RNG-dominant as D&D. It completely changes the math. At say, L7 it makes the 1-9 range into 10, so the lowest you can roll is 10 + Stat + Proficiency/Expertise, so for a DEX skill likely 10 + 4 + 3 or 10 + 4 + 6 - meaning you literally can't fail a DC15 or DC20 check respectively, rather than having a 35% chance and a 45% chance of failure respectively. That's absolutely huge.Even with lower stats, like say, a +2 CHA, and mere Proficiency in Persuasion, you're hitting DC15 100% of the time, which the Bard with Expertise in Persuasion and +4 CHA cannot say - with +4 +6, the Bard still need to roll an 5 or above - a 20% outright failure chance compared to your 0%.If 5E had Take 10 and Take 20 like it should, it would be less of an issue. But given 5E's love of RNG absolutely screwing everyone who doesn't get Reliable Talent or something similar (I think one Bard subclass gets it for social skills), this is a game-changer. With DMs who don't cheat the designed system and make a 1 fail skill rolls it means Rogues can, like casters, kind of "assert fiction" on lower DC skill checks - checks the DM would definitely want to roll on another PC!If the playtest Wizard goes live, the "prepared" angle for Wizards is effectively removed with the specific kinds of spells that compete with Rogues and other skill users. Let's hope that doesn't happen. Also, being realistic - it's relatively rare to see this be a major issue - it's not that skills don't get used, but if you have to succeed at something, you use a spell. Reliable Talent is the only ability in the game that really challenges that. But what it means is that before the level where Rogues get it, they're not particularly notably good at skills, nor "versatile" - especially as more classes are now getting Expertise.They also lack versatility in combat - they're sorta okay at damaging one guy per round and they have reasonable but not stunning mobility. They can't deal significant damage to multiple enemies. They can't survive multiple attackers. At least the playtest lets them inflict some conditions, albeit at the cost of doing even less damage.We can certainly say this - the playtest Rogue, if it goes live, will be more versatile than the current Rogue.(As an aside Reliable Talent is genuinely pretty great, but the biggest obstacle it faces is DMs who don't quite "get" it - i.e. DMs who want a 1 to always fail, so make you still fail on a 1 after Reliable Talent, even though the ability specifies 1-9 counting at 10, or more insidiously, DMs who just "devalue" it, and don't see a check pass achieved that was as "as good" as one rolled "correctly", or who just start using higher DCs as soon as Reliable Talent comes online. I don't think it's conscious malice or the like, but there are certainly DMs out there who are "oppositional" to Reliable Talent, even if they've never consciously thought "I don't like this ability". You saw some similarly oppositional behaviour re: Take 10 and Take 20 in 3.XE/PF1, I note. Personally I don't quite get it, but I've seen it in action.)</blockquote>

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