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Message: <blockquote data-quote="ECMO3" data-source="post: 9230524" data-attributes="member: 7030563">Which is common.A Rogue with an 8 strength starts at +3 with expertise at 1st level, which is pretty darn good, better than the vast majority of enemies you are going to face.  That goes to +5 at 5th level and +7 at 9th.Sure a strength based martial with athletics will be just about as good or better until high level ... if you have one in the party, which is not uncommon, but is not universal either.But the thing is you are doing this with an 8 strength and still able to do it effectively.  You are also better than all the dex-based Fighters, even if they did take athleticsHow many partys have a strength based martial at all?  Probably about 50%.Not IME.  Most of the Rogues I play start with a 16+ in either Wisdom or Charisma, and as often as not a 13-14 in the one of those that is not a 16.On top of this, they have both more skill proficiencies and better skill choices than most of the Wisdom or Charisma classes.Warlocks don't have Persuasion on their skill tree, Paladins don't have Deception.  Clerics and Druids don't have perception.Also keep in mind Rogues get an extra ASI as well.If they want to do that, but that is not without consequences; especially roll play consequences.I'm not saying they can't get perception, they can but usually they are behind both the Rogue and the Ranger in these skills.  More often than not a Cleric or Druid is just going to rely on their wisdom as being "good enough"But unless you got really bad rolls, why would you play a Rogue with only a +2 if you wanted to be good at Persuasion.You put your scores where you want to put them.Also a Bard is going to generally be better than a Rogue at these, but other Charisma classes won't be.I think it is relatively rare for a Wizard to have spells prepared to consistently compete with the Rogue out of combat.This is especially true at high levels, where the number of prepared spells becomes a serious limfac.  Sure knock is great at unlocking doors, but I have never seen a 10th level Wizard with it prepared.  Likewise Suggestion and Detect Thoughts is awesome out of combat, but at 10th level I've only seen those prepared on enchantment Wizards and characters who took Telepathic feat respectively. Disguise Self can be awesome out of combat, but unless it is a racial spell, again I don't see it prepared on high-level casters.Low level casters often have one or two of these kinds of spells, but they don't have excess slots to use them often.Arcane Tricksters and Thiefs are two of the most versatile characters I have played in combat.Mage Hand Legerdemain or fast hands are freaking awesome in combat.  Use it to steal an enemies spell focus or component pouch and now he can't cast spells with a material  component.  Use oil or holy water or caltrops or tie a rope around an enemies ankle or a host of other things.I had a Glasya Tiefling Arcane Trickster who played combat like she was Kevin from the movie home alone, doing all sorts of things with her Mage hand, her Raven familiar and Illusions.  She also had a 20 Charisma, Hex through Fey Touched (for disadvantage on intelligence or wisdom checks) and expertise in Deception.</blockquote>

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