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<blockquote data-quote="ruleslawyer" data-source="post: 6467072" data-attributes="member: 1757"><p>Well yeah...</p><p></p><p>People seem to be missing the point with backstab. The point isn't that 1e/2e backstab is an impossible-to-use ability (it wasn't, especially if the thief were buffed with invisibility, boots of elvenkind, et cetera), but that the one essentially-once-per-combat attack is insufficient to turn the thief into the number one damage dealer. At the high levels being discussed (13+), the 1e thief's THAC0 *with the +4 bonus from backstab* is still 2 higher than the fighter's, ranger's etc. base. Then there's the fact that the thief is getting one attack to the fighter's two (or 5/2 with specialization post-UA). THEN there's the fact that the fighter is also potentially getting +3 double specialization bonus to hit, almost certainly has higher Strength, and is using a weapon with a bigger damage die. THEN you consider the fact that the fighter/ranger/whatever can do this every round, potentially *from range* (and post-UA, longbow specialization was deadly), and has a bit more staying power from high AC and hp compared to the thief. It's not even close.</p><p></p><p> [MENTION=12630]Ahrimon[/MENTION]: Yeah, the girdle of giant strength thing amuses me. If you played A1-4 followed by GDQ1-7 as I did, there's precisely ONE such item. Given the above analysis, it's going to the fighter, not the thief. So those assuming that the thief has said girdle are assuming that the party has at least two such items (more if there are two or more fighters, rangers, paladins, cavaliers, or barbarians in the party).</p><p></p><p>Rogues really became situational damage dealers in 3e, and "real" damage dealers in 4e. Before that they were scouts, pickpockets, and utility characters. The 5e rogue appears to balance the three pillars quite well; the assassin option definitely packs a punch, and not having everything be immune to sneak attack allows the rogue to focus on dealing damage, but at the same time the rogue doesn't outclass the fighter or barbarian in DPR.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ruleslawyer, post: 6467072, member: 1757"] Well yeah... People seem to be missing the point with backstab. The point isn't that 1e/2e backstab is an impossible-to-use ability (it wasn't, especially if the thief were buffed with invisibility, boots of elvenkind, et cetera), but that the one essentially-once-per-combat attack is insufficient to turn the thief into the number one damage dealer. At the high levels being discussed (13+), the 1e thief's THAC0 *with the +4 bonus from backstab* is still 2 higher than the fighter's, ranger's etc. base. Then there's the fact that the thief is getting one attack to the fighter's two (or 5/2 with specialization post-UA). THEN there's the fact that the fighter is also potentially getting +3 double specialization bonus to hit, almost certainly has higher Strength, and is using a weapon with a bigger damage die. THEN you consider the fact that the fighter/ranger/whatever can do this every round, potentially *from range* (and post-UA, longbow specialization was deadly), and has a bit more staying power from high AC and hp compared to the thief. It's not even close. [MENTION=12630]Ahrimon[/MENTION]: Yeah, the girdle of giant strength thing amuses me. If you played A1-4 followed by GDQ1-7 as I did, there's precisely ONE such item. Given the above analysis, it's going to the fighter, not the thief. So those assuming that the thief has said girdle are assuming that the party has at least two such items (more if there are two or more fighters, rangers, paladins, cavaliers, or barbarians in the party). Rogues really became situational damage dealers in 3e, and "real" damage dealers in 4e. Before that they were scouts, pickpockets, and utility characters. The 5e rogue appears to balance the three pillars quite well; the assassin option definitely packs a punch, and not having everything be immune to sneak attack allows the rogue to focus on dealing damage, but at the same time the rogue doesn't outclass the fighter or barbarian in DPR. [/QUOTE]
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