Rogues rule! (warning, kinda long and kinda ranting)

[L0rd_Dark0n]

Ok, I just want to get an idea of how all you gamers and DM's out there feel about the Rogue class. To me, they're my absolute favorite class to play. They know how to do all kinds of things, and they do them well and with style. Plus, I can't think of any other class that has in it the potential for character diversification (other than the Fighter). You can have the classic thief character, a good hearted professional adventurer, a diplomat, the list goes on and on. They can be of any alignment, and no two are alike...aside from the sneak attack ability and other class abilities. Now, in the area of the nation where I game, for some reason, other players and DM's detest Rogues. I mean they really don't like them. ANY kind of Rogue. They complain that the Rogue class is way too powerful, and that they hope that 3.5 strips away their class abilities, and basically just leave them like a crippled bard with no spell abilities. ie, 6 skill points where bards should get 8 AND spells, no dex to AC bonuses, and so on and so forth. They just go on and on about it. But here's the thing, they don't like the class, so they don't really play one. Their experience with the Rogue class is just a couple levels of mulitclassing into the Rogue class. Doesn't matter how many times I or someone else playing a Rogue saves their butts, they just can't get over it, or give the Rogue credit and their characters go out of their way to make life miserable for Rogues in the group. They NEVER trust them, EVEN if they're Lawful Good! This isn't isolated to just a few people either. It's been the case with every group that I've played in. And these people from different groups don't know each other. Is this a common feeling about the Rogue class? These gamers here, however, LOVE the Rogue variants that are in the Star Wars d20 game such as the Scoundrel, and the Wheel of Time's Wanderer. This baffles me. What do you, the gamers out there on the net think?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Well, the versions of Starwars and WoT are certainly weaker than the D&D Rogue, but magic in both is not as common as in D&D. (But in both, Magic /Force User shine at higher level, but that`s another Rant )

If they do not trust rogues, don`t tell them you are one.
Especially not in character (out of character it becomes very difficult, since you have to ask questions likes "Sneak Attackable?" or "Rogue of 4 levels higher than me?").

And than there is still another way to do it - speak about it with your group. Remember them to differ between in character and off character, and remember tham that without a rogue, the next trap will explode at them

Mustrum Ridcully

 

[tonym]

I like rogues, too.

Regarding the anti-rogue sentiment exhibited by other character classes and by 'some' Players, I think that's part of the fun of running a rogue. But it can be a little distressing when it goes too far...

Like the time my rogue died in a battle aboard a ship, and instead of raising him, the party just chunked his body overboard.

Oh, WOE! Poor Dragonus--fed to the fishes!


Tony M

 

[Henry]

Chucked his body overboard! YEOWTCH! Your Rogue has some cold friends!

Rest assured that not all groups feel the same. I have several players that love single-classed rogues, or at least multiclassing partway in them. I don't see the animosity, myself, especially when they contribute to the group's success, which is often.

However, all the classes can be quite broad and diversified. Bards are a personal favorite, because all people think about are stereotypical lute-strumming bards, forgetting that just the bard's voice is all that's needed, and he doesn't even have to sing songs! Bards would make the ultimate diplomats, because not only can they speak more languages than any class, and be the most diplomatic, they can also use their magics to either win converts or impress the locals. Bards are the ultimate "people persons."

 

[Wraith Form]

Re: Re: Rogues rule! (warning, kinda long and kinda ranting)

I like rogues, too.

Word to your mother.

They've long been my favorite, too.

I wish there were more adventures written specifically for Rogues, though, aside from the Wyvern's Claw: Thievery 101 series and the old 2nd Ed Lanhkmar setting.

Any suggestions?

 

[L0rd_Dark0n]

As for Rogue specified games, if you've played the Thief PC series from Looking Glass, those two games give you awesome ideas for Rogue games...if that's the kind of Rogues you want to run.

Seems like the Rogues usually get blamed for everything that goes wrong in the games that i play in. Even if i'm not the one playing the Rogue! but the other party members don't know about some of the things that my Rogues have done to help the party. In my family game that I play in, everytime I scout ahead and come back, the party leaders, female monk and cleric, want me patted down. Which I don't mind as long as I get to pat them back (and on occasion, lift stuff from them, and plant it on another party member , but that's rare) But that group was SO poor, they couldn't afford to stay at an inn! 6th lvl group, and the party funds were like 20 gold pieces. So, in the middle of this campaign where we're trying to save this city (Witchfire trilogy) my rogue finally puts his larceny skills to good use. No one in that bloody city had thanked us, payed us, or gave us any kind of reward for helping save the city TWICE. In fact, I had to STEAL holy water from the cleric in that city to fight the undead that he knew we were going to be facing! Talk about stingy. After risking our necks for these ungrateful people, my Rogue went on a larceny spree with the other party Rogue. We picked pockets, we swiped precious things and sold them to the local fences. And in the end, made a nice little tidy profit of about 3000 gold. The DM was rather amused, the other players were not. Course their characters didn't know anything about this. SO, after getting that nice little gift from the good people of the city of Corvis, my Rogue plants the gold on the party member carrying the party funds a little bit at a time. LG female cleric. Imagine her surprise when the DM informs her that the next time she opens the purse, there's like 3000 gold in there

 

[fett527]

I certainly wouldn't want to play with your group. I have loved playing the rogue I am currently playing. It's fun playing the go-to-guy when it comes to skills and the sneak attack is invaluable in combat. I think any class can be too powerful in the right twinkers hands and I do not believe the Rogue is overpowered.

 

[Tsyr]

It's meta-gaming, pure and simple. Do characters run around with "rogue" tattooed on their forhead in your world? If not, the other characters *in theory* shouldn't treat you any different than anyone else. Unfortunatly, thats not how it ends up working...

 

[JRRNeiklot]

The only problem I have with the rogue is sneak attack. The class in general is fine, I just find that, unlike previous editions,the 3e rogue gets sneak attack damage WAY too often. It perhaps wouldn't be so bad if it was limited just to the rogue and assassin classes. But every other prestige class has sneak attack as a feature. Rogues generally dish out more damage than any other character class, especially when you combine it with crap like the OBI or deepwood sniper classes.

And flanking? That is NOT a sneak attack.

 

[Creeping Death]

The only problem I have with the rogue is sneak attack. The class in general is fine, I just find that, unlike previous editions,the 3e rogue gets sneak attack damage WAY too often. It perhaps wouldn't be so bad if it was limited just to the rogue and assassin classes. But every other prestige class has sneak attack as a feature. Rogues generally dish out more damage than any other character class, especially when you combine it with crap like the OBI or deepwood sniper classes.

And flanking? That is NOT a sneak attack.

There is a piece written by Sean K. Renolds or Monte Cook, can't remember who, that explains that a 20th level fighter on average will deal more damage than a 20th level rogue trying to get sneak attack damage. It all evens out in the end. If you want to see how good a rogue is without sneak attack damage play a rogue in an adventure where all you do is fight undead, constructs, and ooze. Heck, monks with their iterative attacks and d20 damage would hit more often than a rogue.

I've played a rogue and I consistantly hit less than the party fighters. It would go like this:
round 1:
me - miss
fighter - hit 8 pts

round 2:
me - miss
fighter - hit 9 pts

round 3:
me - hit 14 pts
fighter - hit 8 pts
creature dead.