D&D 5E Roleplaying in D&D 5E: It’s How You Play the Game

[HammerMan]

Being punitive does usually require being human. That doesn't excuse the DM from being an a-hole. If the check was going to be successful no matter what they did then it's going to be successful no matter what they say.

While I reward creativity and out of the box thinking I don't want to reward or punish people for proficiency in saying what I want to hear. If someone does something I think the PC would know I'll simply tell them "there are crates you can go behind instead of the direct path, do you want to hide behind them instead?" I don't assume that I described the environment with 100% clarity and the PC is the one making the stealth check, not the player in my games.

There are many ways to run this but for my games I don't want to make the players guess the magic words to avoid risk of failure. It's unfair to people that don't know me as well as a DM or that aren't as fluent in describing their actions.

I often have to remind my players 'easy' checks by the book start at 5s, and I sometimes feel DMs need a little reminder of that as well.

In my games I let anyone trained in a thing (skill, save, even attack rolls) auto succeed on a dc 10 or lower.
(I think one of the golems has an AC 8, and as such you can choose to auto hit or roll, but if you roll nat 1s still miss (but nat 20s crit) )

IF a trained PC was going to succseed without a roll and they rolled a nat 1 and got a low number I would just keep going with they made it... 1's don't auto fail skill checks.

Also I have seen a fighter/rogue in the teens for levels +6 from dex +8 from prof/expertise and +5 from magic item have a +19 to stealth... yeah, they don't need to roll if the DC is 20 or less at that point cause that is the minimum... a few level later (and prof/exp +10) they got that min roll always counted as a 10 ability seting there low roll at 31... and for some reason she would still be like "naughty word I rolled a 4" and we would have to remind her... "You mean got a 35... the highest by the book DC!"

 

[HammerMan]

What does a PC's ability modifier have to do with whether or not the DM grants auto-success in a situation?

well an auto success for a +11 hide should be way eaiser then one for a +1 hide... you know since one has a range of 12-31 and the other has a range of 2-21... a paladin in full plate a dex of 8 and not trained trying to stealth should not get the auto success that a rogue trained/expertise and have an 18+ dex would...

Auto-success (and, indeed, auto-failure) have to do with the scenario and the PC's goal and approach to the situation.

the character not the player (PC stands for player CHARACTER)

The modifier (and proficiency bonus, if applicable) come into play only when an ability check is called for - which is when the outcome is uncertain and there is a meaningful consequence for failure.

and that uncertainty should pop up much more for a disadvantage -1 stealth then a straight roll +11 stealth no matter how the PC describes it.


in any game of 5e I have ever played or run or even seen played at a store the conversation would go like this
DM: ROgue makes it, paliden roll with disadvantage at DCXX
Paliden player: But I did and said the same thing the rogue player did
DM: Yeah, but he knows how to do it IN GAME, and you don't

 

[Oofta]

We were talking about the Hide action in combat but we can explore your scenario.

First, I don't think a DM would indicate that a PC "needs" to do anything. The DM would present the scenario of a guard and ask the players what they'd like to do.

If a player then declared their PC was going to sneak past said guard in some manner, the DM would adjudicate. If it seemed like the guard was distracted and/or the PC was sticking to some dark shadows and/or whatever beneficial things, the DM could then grant an auto-success to the sneaking. There would be no roll.

Scenario 1: There's a guard at the post and you need to get to the other side. The DM has already decided for whatever reasons that the stealth check will automatically succeed. Perhaps the guard is asleep or, unbeknownst to the players is already dead.

Option 1:
Player: "I sneak past".
DM: "You get past, no problem" Perhaps the player even realizes that the guard is dead.
My opinion: No issues, the fiction was pre-established in the DM's head and did not change.

Option 2:
Player: "I sneak past". Rolls some dice ... "I get a 4".
DM: "Sorry you fail, the guard sounds the alarm!"
My opinion: The DM is being a jerk. The dice roll was not relevant to the situation and quite possibly the DM changed the fiction and resurrected the guard.


Scenario 2: There's a sleepy guard that may or may not detect someone.
Option 1:
Player: "I sneak past"
DM: Asks for a stealth check after getting some clarification on the options of how they sneak by, perhaps giving a couple of options of how to accomplish the task.
My opinion: This is how I would normally do it. If he scenario is clear I don't care if the player rolls their stealth check along with the declared action, it saves time that I would rather spend on more interesting things than a stealth check.

Option 2:
Player: "I sneak past." along with more words describing how they sneak past. Perhaps there's some back-and-forth.
DM: Depending on what they player says they succeed or fail.
My opinion: the player just made a persuasion check on the DM. It's player skill based on their previous experiences with the DM or how good they are at extemporaneous descriptions. I don't do this because I don't want to penalize people that are not naturally persuasive.

There are, of course, many ways of doing this. I just want the PC build choices to matter more than how good a player is as saying the right thing.

 

[HammerMan]

Option 2:
Player: "I sneak past." along with more words describing how they sneak past. Perhaps there's some back-and-forth.
DM: Depending on what they player says they succeed or fail.
My opinion: the player just made a persuasion check on the DM. It's player skill based on their previous experiences with the DM or how good they are at extemporaneous descriptions. I don't do this because I don't want to penalize people that are not naturally persuasive.

There are, of course, many ways of doing this. I just want the PC build choices to matter more than how good a player is as saying the right thing.

yeah I get the feeling the 'magi words' crowd is okay with " the player just made a persuasion check on the DM" it just seems so weird to me that in an RPG you can just not RP your character but something not of your character and get it...

 

[Swarmkeeper]

Scenario 1: There's a guard at the post and you need to get to the other side. The DM has already decided for whatever reasons that the stealth check will automatically succeed. Perhaps the guard is asleep or, unbeknownst to the players is already dead.

Option 1:
Player: "I sneak past".
DM: "You get past, no problem" Perhaps the player even realizes that the guard is dead.
My opinion: No issues, the fiction was pre-established in the DM's head and did not change.

Option 2:
Player: "I sneak past". Rolls some dice ... "I get a 4".
DM: "Sorry you fail, the guard sounds the alarm!"
My opinion: The DM is being a jerk. The dice roll was not relevant to the situation and quite possibly the DM changed the fiction and resurrected the guard.

At our table, players only roll ability checks when they are asked, so it is quite the opposite. A player rolling an ability check without being asked is actually disrupting the game. Different tables, different styles. Now, players might forget or might be new to the group or whatever - as DM, I would just explain/remind how it works and we move on.

Scenario 2: There's a sleepy guard that may or may not detect someone.
Option 1:
Player: "I sneak past"
DM: Asks for a stealth check after getting some clarification on the options of how they sneak by, perhaps giving a couple of options of how to accomplish the task.
My opinion: This is how I would normally do it. If he scenario is clear I don't care if the player rolls their stealth check along with the declared action, it saves time that I would rather spend on more interesting things than a stealth check.

Option 2:
Player: "I sneak past." along with more words describing how they sneak past. Perhaps there's some back-and-forth.
DM: Depending on what they player says they succeed or fail.
My opinion: the player just made a persuasion check on the DM. It's player skill based on their previous experiences with the DM or how good they are at extemporaneous descriptions. I don't do this because I don't want to penalize people that are not naturally persuasive.

There are, of course, many ways of doing this. I just want the PC build choices to matter more than how good a player is as saying the right thing.

Again (yes, this conversation has been had before) no one is requiring the player to say "the right thing". What is required: the player needs to say what the character wants to do and how. It needs to be reasonably specific - and no special expertise is needed. Example: "My PC sticks to the shadows on far side of the clearing to sneak past the guard." Then the DM adjudicates. That's how it works. If you still don't understand, I'm happy to answer questions for you.

 

[Oofta]

I often have to remind my players 'easy' checks by the book start at 5s, and I sometimes feel DMs need a little reminder of that as well.

In my games I let anyone trained in a thing (skill, save, even attack rolls) auto succeed on a dc 10 or lower.
(I think one of the golems has an AC 8, and as such you can choose to auto hit or roll, but if you roll nat 1s still miss (but nat 20s crit) )

IF a trained PC was going to succseed without a roll and they rolled a nat 1 and got a low number I would just keep going with they made it... 1's don't auto fail skill checks.

Also I have seen a fighter/rogue in the teens for levels +6 from dex +8 from prof/expertise and +5 from magic item have a +19 to stealth... yeah, they don't need to roll if the DC is 20 or less at that point cause that is the minimum... a few level later (and prof/exp +10) they got that min roll always counted as a 10 ability seting there low roll at 31... and for some reason she would still be like "naughty word I rolled a 4" and we would have to remind her... "You mean got a 35... the highest by the book DC!"

I do sometimes throw in a DC 5 check, obviously a lot of PCs won't even need to roll the dice. Heck, there are times in my current game where the 15th level rogue will just automatically succeed on almost all checks. Because of reliable talent they can't get lower than a 25. I don't remember the last time I had a DC 30 "nearly impossible", although it's probably happened.

 

[HammerMan]

Again (yes, this conversation has been had before) no one is requiring the player to say "the right thing". What is required: the player needs to say what the character wants to do and how. It needs to be reasonably specific - and no special expertise is needed. Example: "My PC sticks to the shadows on far side of the clearing to sneak past the guard." Then the DM adjudicates. That's how it works. If you still don't understand, I'm happy to answer questions for you.

so if 1 player has a character with no training in stealth but describes slowly moving silently and keeping the trees in the way, and player 2 has a stealth expert character that says "um I don't know, can I just like be stealthy" how do you rule that?

 

[HammerMan]

I do sometimes throw in a DC 5 check, obviously a lot of PCs won't even need to roll the dice. Heck, there are times in my current game where the 15th level rogue will just automatically succeed on almost all checks. Because of reliable talent they can't get lower than a 25. I don't remember the last time I had a DC 30 "nearly impossible", although it's probably happened.

back 2 campaigns ago I threw a DC 40 arcana check at the mage to be able to know the arcane runes of a long dead civilitation... the players aided him (advantage) the cleric guidenced him and the bard inspired him (was already a high arcana check we are talking like 17ish level game) and the dude got a 42... my jaw dropped. but yeah DCs higher then 20 are rare in my games too (unless opposed rolls)

 

[prabe]

so if 1 player has a character with no training in stealth but describes slowly moving silently and keeping the trees in the way, and player 2 has a stealth expert character that says "um I don't know, can I just like be stealthy" how do you rule that?

This ... isn't a gotcha. The characters both roll and if they beat the guard's Passive Perception, they succeed.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

so if 1 player has a character with no training in stealth but describes slowly moving silently and keeping the trees in the way, and player 2 has a stealth expert character that says "um I don't know, can I just like be stealthy" how do you rule that?

It, of course, depends on what else is going on in the scene.

The 1st player has been very clear about their approach. The 2nd player perhaps has not - I might ask them for clarification so I'm not making any undue assumptions about what their character is doing in the scene. Are they trying to crawl behind the guard? Are they sticking to the shadows on the opposite side? Like, be a little more specific so I have something to work with, you know?