D&D 5E Roleplaying in D&D 5E: It’s How You Play the Game

[AbdulAlhazred]

Of course player knowledge and skill matters. But there is a line, admittedly a fuzzy one. I see player tactics making a huge difference in the games I play, I've run simultaneous groups that were the same level and challenges and 1 group was significantly more effective than the other. On the other hand I think you cross a line if you are selling the DM on an idea of how your approach is so amazingly good that there is no need for a check whether or not it would actually work in real life.

I'm picking a bit on the "tank trap" idea here, but even if the PC did come up with that idea did they know how to execute it correctly? Would it really be useful against the opponent you are facing as opposed to other defenses? Why is it different than simply stating that you're setting up a defensive line with sharpened posts that will be different to cross? That, and if you PC background is that of a sheltered acolyte who has never read a book on warfare in their life, it strains credulity a bit.

So there's nothing wrong with coming up with good tactics. I just don't care for it if the benefit gained is too overwhelming or powerful.

Yeah, and I go along with you on that. Just because a player can roughly describe a tank trap, and maybe even is an expert in building them, doesn't mean the character can do it, or find the required tools, or materials, or that the ground is very suitable, etc. These kinds of details can be subsumed into the check, and are almost never objectively defined beforehand (I know of no D&D adventure where the consistency of the earth underfoot was expounded upon, at most it might be noted where it is unusual).

 

[Swarmkeeper]

I don't believe in magic words.

I know that. Just appears @pemerton is saying that a rousing speech given by a player would gain them advantage at your table.

In other words, they have it wrong and, at your table, there is no difference in a rousing roleplayed player speech and "I roll Persuasion" for ability check purposes. Is that correct?

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I'm assuming that is coming from the people who claim that its 'fine' that there are D&D races which seem to be based on racist views of various real world ethnicities. In that context the argument is so incoherent I won't even give it the time of day, it is just rubbish.

No, it is coming from people who want to get rid of racial ASIs. And if indeed seven feet half-orcs and three feet halflings have equal range of strength scores, then it is pretty hard to argue that strength ability actually represent anything concrete.

Anyway, I don't think all this needs to be any big issue. If I write '11' on my character sheet for CHA or even STR, it isn't really saying a whole lot. In the case of STR maybe I'm fairly bulky and look like I MIGHT have a 14, but I just don't. Perhaps I'm just really out of shape, etc. There's certainly wiggle room there. Likewise my 11 CHA character could be really good looking, he's just socially inept, or a jerk, or maybe even just has a particular upbringing that makes people see him in a bad light.

There are a lot of RPGs that started to eschew 'mental' stats even back in the 70's for exactly this kind of reason. It is just really hard to say what exactly they characterize. STR is pretty concrete, you can at the very least explain how it functions. INT? At best it represents a diverse set of attributes which aren't even all closely related to each other in the real world. You can depict it, for sure, in RP, but its very squishy. Its also highly subject to being overridden by player skill, so a lot of games just left it out. Its a pretty valid approach, just not one D&D ever adopted.

Yes. Thus it would make certain sense to get rid of ability scores altogether.

 

[Lanefan]

I am getting a distinct feeling that people being friends at some of these games is rarer then I thought.

On the contrary - we're all friends out-of-game and have been for ages.

But there's some people, absent the smackdown hammer, who just can't help themselves from telling other people how to play their characters; which (IMO very understandably) causes resentment and backlash from those who are being told what to do, because they prefer to think for themselves without interruption or suggestion. Arguments follow.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

No, it is coming from people who want to get rid of racial ASIs. And if indeed seven feet half-orcs and three feet halflings have equal range of strength scores, then it is pretty hard to argue that strength ability actually represent anything concrete.

Regardless of starting ASIs, we can already have a max 20 Strength halfling and a max 20 Strength half-orc in the same party. It will take a few levels to get there, but it is possible. How does that fit into the argument?

 

[Oofta]

I know that. Just appears @pemerton is saying that a rousing speech given by a player would gain them advantage at your table.

In other words, they have it wrong and, at your table, there is no difference in a rousing roleplayed player speech and "I roll Persuasion" for ability check purposes. Is that correct?

Pretty much. There can be other factors that affect the DC or grant advantage/disadvantage such as using leverage based on PC knowledge or previous interactions.

I have some great players who simply are not very eloquent, and sometimes have a hard time expressing their goal and how they're approaching it. I don't want to penalize them for it.

 

[Oofta]

No, it is coming from people who want to get rid of racial ASIs. And if indeed seven feet half-orcs and three feet halflings have equal range of strength scores, then it is pretty hard to argue that strength ability actually represent anything concrete.


Yes. Thus it would make certain sense to get rid of ability scores altogether.

I just assume halflings are magically delicious strong. In the real world, chimpanzees are probably strong enough to rip your arms off and beat you over the head with them. If we have short races then we can either limit their strength or just hand-wave it and blame it on magic or different musculature.

 

[Lanefan]

For me it is probably coming from a background as a kid running around in the woods with sticks pretending to be a dwarf with an axe from Middle Earth.

B/X D&D stats were rolled and had very little mechanical interaction in the game as written so there was a natural emphasis on think up your roleplay concept yourself and go. Part of the big appeal of D&D for me was to roleplay out whatever roleplay concept you wanted, not to build out your roleplay concept mechanically (not a lot of options when you roll dice in order) or to direct yourself to roleplay out the stats you roll.

The bolded are pretty much what we did right from day one: wait and see what the dice give you before putting too much thought into character concept, and then massage whatever concept arises to suit the stats you've ended up with.

And yes, this means sometimes a preconceived character idea or concept just has to go out the window. That's fine - it's not like I'll never roll up another character, so I can always stow that concept away for next time and see what the dice give me then.

 

[Cadence]

I just assume halflings are magically delicious strong. In the real world, chimpanzees are probably strong enough to rip your arms off and beat you over the head with them. If we have short races then we can either limit their strength or just hand-wave it and blame it on magic or different musculature.

I'd kind of like the written description to take that into account. Knowing that the average sized halfling is as strong as the average sized human feels like it would change how the race was viewed (that is, they certainly aren't just hobbits).

 

[Lanefan]

That isn't what that would illustrate to me, though. It would just illustrate to me that a deception can be gotten away with for a while. Strength is clearly defined, as are the concepts of high and low. When you put those together, you get low strength = scrawny, small, etc., and high strength = brawny, muscular, etc.

The deception would come to a crashing end at the first desperate moment when having a strong character could make all the difference* and there ain't no strength there.

* - example: two PCs down, the rest holding the line while Muscletoes carries the fallen away from the fight...except Muscletoes can't carry a quarter of that weight and so the fallen stay where they are, and get trampled.