D&D 5E (2014) Roll20 or Fantasy Grounds?
- Thread starter Grakarg
- Start date
Right, this is going to be a bit complex but I am going to attempt to keep it as precise and unbiased as possible.
First, Pricing for Fantasy Grounds. With a recent change in policy, only a couple of months ago, there are two license types. Subscription (new) and single purchase (traditional). There is a demo license as well, but its only good for trying out FG, as only Demo License with GM license or Unlimited Demo with an Ultimate license (either Subscript or Purchase).
Subscription: $4/month for GM/Player; $10/month for Ultimate License.
Purchase: Demo $0; GM $40; Ultimate $150; GM to Ultimate $115.
The only difference between GM and Ultimate is hosting for those without a license for FG, most users of FG have a license. Now yes, it can be a big initial investment if you go Ultimate right off, which is the price everyone likes to point at and say 'look how expensive FG is', BUT don't forget that to run you only need a GM license which is the cost of a single RPG book or about 3 boxes of minis.
With a license (including Demo) you will get:
FANTASY GROUNDS
Basic use of Fantasy Grounds III doesn't take long, as a user its fairly easy to pick up enough to play or run basic stuff within 1 to 3 sessions depending on how proficient you are with software. Advanced use does take longer and have a steeper learning curve, but this is not necessary to be able to run or play. FG has alot of built in stuff for it and even more from community support (most of my contributions have been minor compared to some of the me adamant supporters).
Basic use/features:
Advanced Use/features
Pros/Cons
FG is a wonderful program, outside of setup it can handle alot of the mundane crap that bogs down a GM such as tracking damage and what's been rolled or not rolled. That being said, setup, for a campaign will take a fair bit of time if you want to do it right. Its possible to do it quicker and leaner but this can show during game play as the gm has to copy then paste or write out what is being said. The same can be said for players, setting up your character can be done quickly, but to get the most out of it you have to take more time and make a more complete character sheet (Settiing up spells or effects for your character)
There is a small but strong core of supporters who help improve and make it better as time progresses, while there is no official support for some systems there are a number of community made modules (content), extensions (rules/mechanics modification), and rulesets (a particular system such as Exalted, 13th Age, etc. Official Content can be a bit slow about coming out as there is a somewhat limited group of people who do make this content.
Importing content (images of various types) has been made much easier a couple of updates ago with the ability to open a normal window to windows so you can select what you want.
Yes, if you are a Mac user you are on the slack end for FG, however they are working on converting FG from (I forget it was initially built with) to using the Unity engine.
FG doesn't require the internet, yes that is probably how 99% of its use happens, however if you want to use it help you run at a table (which I have done for conventions, only need my tablet and no searching through a pdf (click, here's the badies; click here's the content on this room).
FG doesn't support a couple of the features that have become standard for other VTTs, this being built in Audio, Video, and 'Dynamic Lighting'. The first two are no big problem to fix there are two teamspeak servers one in USA (NYC) and one in Europe (London I believe). Video can be handled other ways well. Dynamic Lighting sounds cool and it probably is, but I am pretty sure you have to take the time to set it up to work properly.
Personally, the reason I went with FG was the fact that it supported multiple rulesets, Savage Worlds and DnD being the two I was most interested in at the time, the Cypher System has been a nice addition as well. I am able to put everything I wanted as a GM and once setup we can get busy playing and not busy doing all the stuff that isn't as much fun.
ROLL20
I haven't used Roll20 much or in awhile, took a quick peek as GM to see what had changed but still seems largely the same to me just with some new features.
Roll20 is at its base a shared map with built in A/V and a bunch of extras tagged on. Since the last time I looked at it, it has improved with character sheets and nearly everything else being focused on presenting an image or map.
If there is anyway to put information that I want handy for a campaign I don't see anything that stands out for where to put it. I don't see any easy way to setup NPCs or sort them. I am not saying there isn't a way just nothing that stands out when playing around it for a bit.
As far as money goes, its either basic and free or you have to pay to get better access, most go for either $5/month or $50/year OR $10/month or $100/year for the mentor subscription, which is what is seems you need to be able to make additions to Roll20. It seems from looking at the subscription that is you want to move anything from one campaign or another you have to pay.
Adding images is probably easier than in FG as its all setup for drag and drop but I don't see much else to it, so you would need a PDF or book as well to go with the browser open to Roll20. Additionally, it has built in access to Google for assets (images and sounds) which gives it a huge potential of content, but the free access has a limit of 5MB per item and 100MB per campaign which is a good bit and probably wont be used up unless you use alot of big files.
Please understand I am not trashing Roll20, but I did find it lacking as a VTT as it is largely focused on maps/images. My first and formative experiences were with friends playing Classic World of Darkness and at best we had a white board for sketching out the area and locations, it was only later with getting into DnD that exact distances become so, irritatingly at times, important.
SUMMARY
In the end it is ultimately going to depend on what you want out of a VTT and what value it holds to you. Fantasy Grounds with some work and setup can hold everything you need to play and be self-contained. I've have used it with great success at conventions. I walk in with my map, my gm's tool box which will hold the minis I need, spare dice for players, markers, pens and pencils and my laptop. I need a spell, I click the link to it from the npc's character sheet or search it from the module in FG. I know a number of fellows who need the big luggage containers to hold all their books and a backpack for all the rest.
I have built modules for FG and ran a number of one shots, ran Deadlands: The Flood, played in several campaigns to various points and while I have been off of it for awhile that is because I have moved and been settling into my new job. However, I can say I haven't looked at other VTTs since I got FG (ultimate license) because I am extremely satisfied with it. Yes I have to use Teamspeak for voice communications but that is not a hassle and to make a big deal about it, I think shows how weak the competition is that they have to go to something that minor as a complaint.
Roll20 has a number of bells and whistles that make a lot of people like it, and they all see the FREE and don't think much of it. Their campaign page for something is better than what FG has, but that's not much to say either.
Yes Fantasy Grounds doesn't have all the bells and whistles that a lot of the newer VTT's have, but it has core of what RPGs are down pat, down very very $1,000,000 pat.
As a Final note, I should add that with my last royalties check I have paid off nearly everything I have bought for FG from content I have converted for FG modules which I haven't been doing for about 8 months. And the two big ones were campaigns I had put together to run Deadlands: The Flood and S&R Catalog for Deadlands.
First, Pricing for Fantasy Grounds. With a recent change in policy, only a couple of months ago, there are two license types. Subscription (new) and single purchase (traditional). There is a demo license as well, but its only good for trying out FG, as only Demo License with GM license or Unlimited Demo with an Ultimate license (either Subscript or Purchase).
Subscription: $4/month for GM/Player; $10/month for Ultimate License.
Purchase: Demo $0; GM $40; Ultimate $150; GM to Ultimate $115.
The only difference between GM and Ultimate is hosting for those without a license for FG, most users of FG have a license. Now yes, it can be a big initial investment if you go Ultimate right off, which is the price everyone likes to point at and say 'look how expensive FG is', BUT don't forget that to run you only need a GM license which is the cost of a single RPG book or about 3 boxes of minis.
With a license (including Demo) you will get:
- The mechanics for: DnD 3.5 and Basic Content (Players Guide, Monsters, Spells); Pathfinder and(Players Guide, Monsters, Spells); DnD 4e (no content due to license); DnD 5e (Purchasable), Cypher System (no content); CoreRPG (not explaining it here);
- Default Tokens: Letter (Small and Medium size); Fantasy Human/Humanoid, Animal, and Monsterous Tokens
- Battlemaps (14 when I open it now)
- Crit/Fumble tables for D20 systems
- Calendars with Journal entries
- Fantasy portraits for character sheets
FANTASY GROUNDS
Basic use of Fantasy Grounds III doesn't take long, as a user its fairly easy to pick up enough to play or run basic stuff within 1 to 3 sessions depending on how proficient you are with software. Advanced use does take longer and have a steeper learning curve, but this is not necessary to be able to run or play. FG has alot of built in stuff for it and even more from community support (most of my contributions have been minor compared to some of the me adamant supporters).
Basic use/features:
- Character sheets with Auto-fill, click/double click for rolls; drag and drop features, items, spells
- Random Roll tables
- Combat Tracker; Drag and drop fillable
- Story Entries uses a book/notebook format (mostly basic html formats, couple of nice extras such as links and box text)
- Images and Maps with grids, some layers, basic fog of war (rectangles, circles, and freehand), there is a practical size limit as well as archive limit. Pins which link to other content.
- Notes: Shareable between players or personal;
- Basic Settings for campaign; including dice tower for hidden rolls, whether players can see rolls, seeing gm, effects, token scaling and Health awareness between party and enemies
Advanced Use/features
- Effects; Rogue using poison, psycher going insane, this allows usual conditions to be placed on a pc/npc and then automatically tracked for duration.
- Targeting: Can get bit complicated but makes use of FG's automation for attack, damage and effects
- Party Sheet; Allows Players to check on others loot, stuff that is in general pool, setup a standard marching or watch order
- Modifiers: Like effects, some are prebuilt for some rulesets like cover, improved cover, or concealment and total concealment.
- NPCs and Encounter building: You can setup prebuilt groups of npcs, like a pack of wolves, a party of orcs, or a patrol of robots. Click a button and they are in the combat tracker
- Story Entries: You can link pretty much everything in here, images/maps, items, loot packs, npc(s), other story entires. It simple depends on how far you want to take it.
- Pre-built groupings: You can setup npcs, and items/gold into prebuilt packages and with a click of a button distribute them to combat tracker or party
Pros/Cons
FG is a wonderful program, outside of setup it can handle alot of the mundane crap that bogs down a GM such as tracking damage and what's been rolled or not rolled. That being said, setup, for a campaign will take a fair bit of time if you want to do it right. Its possible to do it quicker and leaner but this can show during game play as the gm has to copy then paste or write out what is being said. The same can be said for players, setting up your character can be done quickly, but to get the most out of it you have to take more time and make a more complete character sheet (Settiing up spells or effects for your character)
There is a small but strong core of supporters who help improve and make it better as time progresses, while there is no official support for some systems there are a number of community made modules (content), extensions (rules/mechanics modification), and rulesets (a particular system such as Exalted, 13th Age, etc. Official Content can be a bit slow about coming out as there is a somewhat limited group of people who do make this content.
Importing content (images of various types) has been made much easier a couple of updates ago with the ability to open a normal window to windows so you can select what you want.
Yes, if you are a Mac user you are on the slack end for FG, however they are working on converting FG from (I forget it was initially built with) to using the Unity engine.
FG doesn't require the internet, yes that is probably how 99% of its use happens, however if you want to use it help you run at a table (which I have done for conventions, only need my tablet and no searching through a pdf (click, here's the badies; click here's the content on this room).
FG doesn't support a couple of the features that have become standard for other VTTs, this being built in Audio, Video, and 'Dynamic Lighting'. The first two are no big problem to fix there are two teamspeak servers one in USA (NYC) and one in Europe (London I believe). Video can be handled other ways well. Dynamic Lighting sounds cool and it probably is, but I am pretty sure you have to take the time to set it up to work properly.
Personally, the reason I went with FG was the fact that it supported multiple rulesets, Savage Worlds and DnD being the two I was most interested in at the time, the Cypher System has been a nice addition as well. I am able to put everything I wanted as a GM and once setup we can get busy playing and not busy doing all the stuff that isn't as much fun.
ROLL20
I haven't used Roll20 much or in awhile, took a quick peek as GM to see what had changed but still seems largely the same to me just with some new features.
Roll20 is at its base a shared map with built in A/V and a bunch of extras tagged on. Since the last time I looked at it, it has improved with character sheets and nearly everything else being focused on presenting an image or map.
If there is anyway to put information that I want handy for a campaign I don't see anything that stands out for where to put it. I don't see any easy way to setup NPCs or sort them. I am not saying there isn't a way just nothing that stands out when playing around it for a bit.
As far as money goes, its either basic and free or you have to pay to get better access, most go for either $5/month or $50/year OR $10/month or $100/year for the mentor subscription, which is what is seems you need to be able to make additions to Roll20. It seems from looking at the subscription that is you want to move anything from one campaign or another you have to pay.
Adding images is probably easier than in FG as its all setup for drag and drop but I don't see much else to it, so you would need a PDF or book as well to go with the browser open to Roll20. Additionally, it has built in access to Google for assets (images and sounds) which gives it a huge potential of content, but the free access has a limit of 5MB per item and 100MB per campaign which is a good bit and probably wont be used up unless you use alot of big files.
Please understand I am not trashing Roll20, but I did find it lacking as a VTT as it is largely focused on maps/images. My first and formative experiences were with friends playing Classic World of Darkness and at best we had a white board for sketching out the area and locations, it was only later with getting into DnD that exact distances become so, irritatingly at times, important.
SUMMARY
In the end it is ultimately going to depend on what you want out of a VTT and what value it holds to you. Fantasy Grounds with some work and setup can hold everything you need to play and be self-contained. I've have used it with great success at conventions. I walk in with my map, my gm's tool box which will hold the minis I need, spare dice for players, markers, pens and pencils and my laptop. I need a spell, I click the link to it from the npc's character sheet or search it from the module in FG. I know a number of fellows who need the big luggage containers to hold all their books and a backpack for all the rest.
I have built modules for FG and ran a number of one shots, ran Deadlands: The Flood, played in several campaigns to various points and while I have been off of it for awhile that is because I have moved and been settling into my new job. However, I can say I haven't looked at other VTTs since I got FG (ultimate license) because I am extremely satisfied with it. Yes I have to use Teamspeak for voice communications but that is not a hassle and to make a big deal about it, I think shows how weak the competition is that they have to go to something that minor as a complaint.
Roll20 has a number of bells and whistles that make a lot of people like it, and they all see the FREE and don't think much of it. Their campaign page for something is better than what FG has, but that's not much to say either.
Yes Fantasy Grounds doesn't have all the bells and whistles that a lot of the newer VTT's have, but it has core of what RPGs are down pat, down very very $1,000,000 pat.
As a Final note, I should add that with my last royalties check I have paid off nearly everything I have bought for FG from content I have converted for FG modules which I haven't been doing for about 8 months. And the two big ones were campaigns I had put together to run Deadlands: The Flood and S&R Catalog for Deadlands.
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No offense but TANSTAAFL! Its free with advertising and limitations or pay (additionally $1 more than FG a month and $10/year more to just out and out buy a permanent license to FG) to avoid advertising and additional features.
Good for encouraging people, but $40 is not a super high starting cost. Especially with the new subscription which is $4/month.
Again, check facts it is $40 for GM/Player license, but it is a one time purchase. I would remind everyone that most games for PC/Console are more. Most RPG books run the same cost, so FG costs as much as 1 RPG book. Yes there are limited list of RPGs that come already with it, but when you buy a rules set you also get all the basic content for it. As far as DnD 5e goes you don't need the Class Packs or the Bestiary to be able to play it in FG, it just makes it a lot easier on players and gms for them to have it. Also my 5e books were $50, FG has them for $45; just looked it up Princes of the Apocalypse is $50 according to Wizards $33 at Amazon and $35 at FG's store.
As I mentioned, I've spent the last two weeks looking for an online group. My wife's work schedule shifted and I can no longer make my regular Organized Play game, so I need to play from home. As a D&D fan with a computer looking to play digitally, I'm exactly the target audience. And yet going with Fantasy Grounds was never realistically considered. Because I cannot justify the expense. I'm not spending $60 for the chance of playing a game. At least when I but the rulebooks, even if I never end up playing I walk away with books to read and keep. I'll be able to look at those books for decades to come (or months in the case of the PHB). Fantasy Grounds... who knows how long it's servers will be up?
I find that the price keeps going up and isn't consistent. First Super High (Ultimate License $150 allows unlimited unlicensed players into that GMs campaigns), then an incorrect $44, and now its $60?
As far as the servers go, HAHAHAHAHHAHA!!!!!!! As far as I understand it the only people who need the FG servers are the unlicensed users to get into the Ultimate GM's campaigns. Normal GM and Player licensees don't need the servers, and Ultimate reverts to standard.
I think a good way to boil it down to the basics is that Roll20 targets Players and FG targets for GMs.
Actually all you need to develop for FG is the normal GM/Player license which is $4 a month or one time purchase of $40. I don't know about with Roll20 but you can get royalties for providing content, varies on if you are converting or making own creation.
Jester David
Hero
I don't know what that acronym means...
There are adds on the site (for Roll20) not on the program. Just finished my first roll20 game and no adds. I was playing with video and chat, while running my character off the equally free iPad app (because the DM subscribed).
I don't see subscriptions for Fantasy Grounds on Steam though, and didn't see it in my glances at the website. I'd have to explore the website for details.
$43.99 on Steam. But that's a lot higher than $0. And if you don't know for sure if you're going to find a game, it's basically gambling with that $40.
I did check facts. As mentioned above, $43.99 on Steam. Could be USD to CAD, but that seems low. More likely it's higher on Steam than their on website. So $44 plus the game licence.
They could at least give you one complimentary ruleset, like HeroLabs does. Including the D&D Basic Rules with purchase of the program would have been a solid for their licence partner and encourage people to buy those packs and pick that system. Charging for the Basic Rules just seems, well, greedy.
Saying it's less than some PC console games or RPG books is irrelevant. $44 is a lot more than mos of the games I grab from Steam sales. I seldom pay more than $20 for a video game anymore. They're just not worth $60.
Plus, money is tight for me right now. My video card died and the $46+ FG would cost is a month delay in getting a new card.
Meanwhile, I was playing on Roll20 with zero problems and zero cost.
So you can play with a direct connection? Such as over a LAN unconnected to the internet?
TANSTAAFL -> There ain't no such thing as a free lunch. The Moon is a Harsh Mistress by Robert A. Heinlein. Inspired by the practice in early 1900's where bars would serve a lunch buffet where you got 1 pass if you bought a drink (at an inflated price) and would typically make you more thirsty (search Barman's Lunch/Snacks). Not necessarily the true source but where most who would know it from.
I can't say about Steam I don't really use it that much. Probably adjusted for Steam's cut of the pie.
I got my license about 3-4 years ago I believe, it only went onto Steam last fall or winter I think. Here is FG Store. So far as I am aware you get Dnd 3.5 - 5e, Pathfinder, and Cypher System automatically with FG. They also have sales on stuff once a season as well I just picked up the 5e stuff while it was on sale. If I remember correctly once you a get a license from Smiteworks (owner and developer of FG) you can use it to activate FG in Steam as well.
I guess I should point out that for FG as a player, you don't have to have the the ruleset or content to play, it simply allows you to access it outside of being in a GM's campaign as it allows a player to make then import their character into a campaign. I should also point out that while an unlicensed player can't edit their character in FG they can get a file of their character which can then be uploaded into another campaign; this is very common for the Living Campaigns like Pathfinder Society and the newer Adventurer's League. Last time I looked which admittedly was well over a year ago for the online PFS community on FG there were a several of unlicensed players who did such.
I hadn't been considering sale prices as they aren't reliable nor consistent. I also wasn't really differing between different levels of games, FG might have an Indie size development team, but FG would be on the scale of a major game when compared to other VTTs. None have the automation or breadth built into it that FG does, or at least not when I last looked, though Epic Table was only in development and Roll20 was still pretty new.
As far as free and FG, there are a number of Ultimate License holders but the GM to Player ratio holds true in there are never enough. There was some discussion over this previously and it we are sure there are a lot more FG players but once they get there copy and a campaign going they disappear from the community until the situation changes or a group of friends pick it up so they can keep playing even though they are now all scattered around.
Yes, though I would have to research about how the subscription works with that. I know if you have a one time purchase license for all copies running you can run on an entirely internal LAN with no need for WAN access. When you go to the launch page for a created campaign, you automatically get the internal IP address for running in your LAN, can retrieve your External IP which you can send for people to directly connect to you or you can create an alias (a 4 word identifier for you) which others can connect to you through the FG servers.
And I can understand the money issues, been there done that. Honestly, the Ultimate License and Savage Worlds ruleset was my Christmas gift that year, but if I hadn't gotten it for Christmas it would have been my Christmas gift to myself with bonus money from all the work.
I have used both and they both have good and bad points
Roll20 is easy to get into , free unless you want to pay ten dollars a month or more to get dynamic lighting and access to the API, its better documentated than FG and you don't have to worry about port forwarding and other networking issues, also loads more people use it. However Fantasy Grounds has some excellent rulesets for 5e Pathfinder to name a few and having used them I would never go back to Roll20, the rule sets just speed up play enormously. That said if I was running say FATE or old school DnD I use Roll20 every time because Roll20 has better dice macro's
For cost the picture is complicated roll 20 is free but if you want the good stuff its $10 a month and that adds up soon. FG for the GM is also expensive though you can buy on a one off $40 payment , that's all i needed to play pathfinder and run a 5e campaign, you don't "need" to buy all the 5e as all the automation is built into the program, I got one of my players to enter all the players handbook, DMG and monster manual into FG for me, its not difficult to do, just takes a long time! I mainly run pathfinder games and all the books are free for FG and there is a tool where by you can just copy monster stat blocks straight into FG, after running Pathfinder in FG I could never go back to running even a face to face game without FG or something like it to all the heavy lifting
If you are player and you can find a GM with a ultimate license then FG is free to play! You used to be able to buy a players license for twelve dollars but now its $4 dollars a month which is a bit crap IMHO
Roll20 is easy to get into , free unless you want to pay ten dollars a month or more to get dynamic lighting and access to the API, its better documentated than FG and you don't have to worry about port forwarding and other networking issues, also loads more people use it. However Fantasy Grounds has some excellent rulesets for 5e Pathfinder to name a few and having used them I would never go back to Roll20, the rule sets just speed up play enormously. That said if I was running say FATE or old school DnD I use Roll20 every time because Roll20 has better dice macro's
For cost the picture is complicated roll 20 is free but if you want the good stuff its $10 a month and that adds up soon. FG for the GM is also expensive though you can buy on a one off $40 payment , that's all i needed to play pathfinder and run a 5e campaign, you don't "need" to buy all the 5e as all the automation is built into the program, I got one of my players to enter all the players handbook, DMG and monster manual into FG for me, its not difficult to do, just takes a long time! I mainly run pathfinder games and all the books are free for FG and there is a tool where by you can just copy monster stat blocks straight into FG, after running Pathfinder in FG I could never go back to running even a face to face game without FG or something like it to all the heavy lifting
If you are player and you can find a GM with a ultimate license then FG is free to play! You used to be able to buy a players license for twelve dollars but now its $4 dollars a month which is a bit crap IMHO
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