Rome, The Dark Ages, and Magic-Technology

[I'm A Banana]

In another thread, it was said that the historical style that many D&D games aim for is something Lord-of-the-Rings/King Arthur kind of Dark Ages of Europe.

However, with the preponderance of magical reliability, popularity of magical items, and population of dangerous and horrific monsters that are "common-ish knowledge" amongst townsfolk, that the feel of the campaigns is more like Ancient Rome, with warriors, gladiators, nobles, monstrous beasts, foreign lands, polytheistic faith, and, ultimately, the wheels of economy greased not by a kingdom, but by an Empire.

So I've started a new thread to discuss it.

This has some connection to older editions of D&D as well. Many of the criticisms of D&D3e seem to be levied at this level of "magical technology," at reliable spells, at frequent magic items, at common monsters that aren't mythic, but that are real. This ruin the feel of the game for some who appreciate the more Dark Ages feel of older editions.

By embracing the magical technology, it seems that 3e has also embraced an Age of Discovery, much like Rome at the height of Imperial conquests. This doesn't easily resonate with those who appreciate a more dark and mysterious world, where foul beasts and powerful magiks are rare and special.

Is this a significant divide in flavor between the editions? Is the "D&D Timeline" in an age of discovery and acceptance of magical technology?

Speculate and ponder away!

 

[LostSoul]

Many of the criticisms of D&D3e seem to be levied at this level of "magical technology," at reliable spells, at frequent magic items, at common monsters that aren't mythic, but that are real.

I wouldn't say that they are criticisms of 3e, but rather the campaign worlds (edit: and modules) that you see published.

I guess I think that there isn't a baseline setting, since you can extrapolate what you get in the PHB and the DMG to many different settings. But not all.

Is this a significant divide in flavor between the editions? Is the "D&D Timeline" in an age of discovery and acceptance of magical technology?

I'd say no. You can pick up The Keep on the Borderlands and play it the same way you'd play The Sunless Citadel - which is to say, with the same feel. The campaign worlds seem to be pretty similar (not that I'd know, anyway). And I don't think the rules themselves lend to any sort of difference in flavour between editions (except that perhaps there was more wonky magic effects that didn't follow the rules in the PHB - like "you can't teleport in here" or "dispel magic does not work on this trap").

 

[Turjan]

Is this a significant divide in flavor between the editions? Is the "D&D Timeline" in an age of discovery and acceptance of magical technology?

Not really. One of the older D&D settings is 'Mystara' aka 'The Known World'. I don't really know it, but in a recent thread on rpg.net it was described as having nations that had a definite Eberron feeling to them, with continual flame lighting everywhere and waste disposals containing Black Puddings on the street corners.

And if we look at the Forgotten Realms, which are not that young anymore, they never had a medieval feeling to them. The have mostly a modern day sociological feeling with a bit of Renaissance architecture, swords and fullplate, and a good dose of late 19th century Western USA. The latter is basically the most influential model on economics.

 

[Akrasia]

Mystara had a 'Roman Empire' called Thyatis. Many of the usual 'Roman' elements were in Thyatis: a huge capital city with an arena, decadent Machiavellian nobles, conquered lands with 'barbarians', etc. Thyatis also had an airborn military order -- i.e. a bunch of warriors who fought on pegasi, griffons, etc. I believe its acronym was R.A.F. (no, I'm not joking; Mystara was full of stuff like that).

Thyatis's rival was the Empire of Alphatia, which was somewhat chaotic in terms of its political organization, and was ruled by magic-users. Alphatia had airships, cities lit my continual light spells, long-lived uber-mages (kept young through their regular consumption of potions of longevity), mad wizard laboratories hidden in dark wild lands, and so forth.

Both empires are described in Aaron Alston's excellent Dawn of the Emperors box set (from 1989 iirc).

The whole 'magic-as-technology' thing was, to a great extent, part of Mystara, as developed for the Basic/Expert D&D rules during the 1980s and early 1990s (parts of Mystara were published in the Rules Cyclopedia.)

For some reason, while I normally hate the 'magic-as-technology' approach to fantasy, I have a real soft spot for Mystara.

 

[Silveras]

I think the issue is two-fold.

First, for people who are somewhat up on how technology relates to social advancement, the lack of social advancement in "standard D&D" settings becomes awkward.

Second, when the social advancement is made, the game becomes less a "medieval(-esque) fantasy" game and more of an "alternate reality where magic replaces technology" game.

In the first case, the availability of spells like Resurrection would mean that all nations would have laws regarding their use. Likewise, the availability of spells in general would force nations to write laws regarding their use. If every town is likely to have an arcanist capable of casting Fireball or better, expect to see that licensed, taxed, or outlawed. Charms ? Probably illegal without a "court order" in most Lawful or Good nations. Evocations ? Probably strictly regulated because of issues of collateral damage. Illusions ? An entertainment industry seems like a natural consequence. Not to mention the likelihood that fraud is much more common than it probably was historically.

In the second case, as I read Crime & Punishment by Keith Baker (published by Atlas Games), I was struck by how the rules modeled modern investigative techniques. Police forces and investigation are largely modern concepts; most "town watches" were more geared toward breaking up fights ("disturbances of the peace") and watching out for fires. They were *preventative* rather than *investigative* operations.

Eberron is not to my taste because it is too "modern" in feel. I like my games with a strong mythic feel (which is one reason why Birthright is one of my favorite settings; the bloodline rules gave monsters back the feeling that they were larger-than-life and mythic).

 

[Turanil]

I think that Eberron looks more like a kind of Victorian era as portrayed in the Van Helsing movie, than a roman empire.

Generally, the civilization portrayed in D&D is more of the 18th century that would have kept with medieval fashion, and magic instead of technology (so magical arrows and wands of magic missiles rather than muskets).

One of the things I don't like in D&D 3.5 (even worse than D&D 3.0), is that the profusion of magic, weird races, and weird classes, renders the whole thing mundane. So it doesn't look like anymore playing in a mythical world of intrigue and mystery, but in a Disneyland park where the colorful ogre is next to the candy shop.

 

[Turjan]

Generally, the civilization portrayed in D&D is more of the 18th century that would have kept with medieval fashion, and magic instead of technology (so magical arrows and wands of magic missiles rather than muskets).

It's more a mix of late 19th and late 20th century . That's also true for fashion, except some of the armor.

One of the things I don't like in D&D 3.5 (even worse than D&D 3.0), is that the profusion of magic, weird races, and weird classes, renders the whole thing mundane. So it doesn't look like anymore playing in a mythical world of intrigue and mystery, but in a Disneyland park where the colorful ogre is next to the candy shop.

Right. But in order to come to this conclusion you have to be able to tell the difference between Carcassonne and Disneyland (at least as far as there is any ).

 

[Aeric]

I agree completely with Silveras' and Turanil's posts. My question would then be, how does one emulate a Medieval fantasy world with the current ruleset without resorting to low magic, grim 'n' gritty alternate rules such as those found in Iron Heroes or even True20? Is it possible? Or should we just accept that D&D is a different beast than it once was?

 

[Turjan]

I agree completely with Silveras' and Turanil's posts. My question would then be, how does one emulate a Medieval fantasy world with the current ruleset without resorting to low magic, grim 'n' gritty alternate rules such as those found in Iron Heroes or even True20? Is it possible? Or should we just accept that D&D is a different beast than it once was?

It was never medieval. The easiest thing would just be to drop the word "medieval". It's modern without gunpowder and with magic.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

I agree here. One has to look no further than to The Principalities of Glantri to encounter water-elemental propulsed gondolas in Glantri City, and household magic items.

Magic as technology and weird special effects is as much part of D&D as is feudal settings, lost worlds or ancient empires. It always depends on what part of D&D a DM wants to emphasize, and what background he chooses for that. If I want a roman empire in decline, for example, I look for Thyatis.

The bottom line is that not everything in the "older editions" was Dark Ages. Quite on the contrary, actually. It always depends on how you play it, and what material you use.