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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
Ron Edwards on D&D 4e
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<blockquote data-quote="Malmuria" data-source="post: 8412561" data-attributes="member: 7030755"><p>Pulling together a couple posts from different threads...</p><p></p><p>I've often heard people online who are defenders of 4e say that it should have been called "dnd tactics," or that the combat focus of the game made it the one most true to the wargaming roots of the hobby. Do you all agree with that?</p><p></p><p>From your description, it seems the game is not about combat per se, but about putting emphasis on the <em>encounter</em> as a means of pacing a narrative and creating distinct <em>scenes</em> within that narrative. Skill challenges, whether well-implemented or not, similarly seem to be a way to take free play make it into a more structured <em>scene</em>. If this is the case, I have two questions:</p><p></p><p>1. what is the relationship of what happens inside of initiative order and what happens outside of initiative, especially as compared to, say, AD&D or basic? For example, if I'm thinking of creating a player driven sandbox in AD&D, a lot of the player agency takes place outside of initiative, sometimes using a subsystem designed or heavily modified by the DM (spell research, questing for a magic item, training, random shenanigans, gen exploration, etc). From that perspective, a game that places a focus on the encounter while also heavily defining what a character can do within the encounter <em>seems</em> to be not player-focused, and yet you are saying that it is. (note: I'm not saying one or the other is good for roleplaying, but trying to understand what exactly hinges on rolling initiative and being <em>in</em> vs <em>out</em> of an encounter).</p><p></p><p>1a. To take a specific example, the Dragonlance modules are lambasted for being railroads because the attempt to create a paced, high fantasy epic clashes with the AD&D's focus on picaresque freeplay. Would these type of modules feel more natural in 4e, where each bit of narrative could be treated as an encounter/scene?</p><p></p><p>2. How does the encounter-as-scene dynamic of 4e compare with explicit storygames (let's say Dungeon World as a good fantasy comp)? It would seem that there might be some similarities, but dungeon world goes the other way and gets rid of initiative all together. Similarly, DW encourages us to "draw maps, leave blanks," as a way of keeping the story-now focus; would 4e work with this same advice?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Malmuria, post: 8412561, member: 7030755"] Pulling together a couple posts from different threads... I've often heard people online who are defenders of 4e say that it should have been called "dnd tactics," or that the combat focus of the game made it the one most true to the wargaming roots of the hobby. Do you all agree with that? From your description, it seems the game is not about combat per se, but about putting emphasis on the [I]encounter[/I] as a means of pacing a narrative and creating distinct [I]scenes[/I] within that narrative. Skill challenges, whether well-implemented or not, similarly seem to be a way to take free play make it into a more structured [I]scene[/I]. If this is the case, I have two questions: 1. what is the relationship of what happens inside of initiative order and what happens outside of initiative, especially as compared to, say, AD&D or basic? For example, if I'm thinking of creating a player driven sandbox in AD&D, a lot of the player agency takes place outside of initiative, sometimes using a subsystem designed or heavily modified by the DM (spell research, questing for a magic item, training, random shenanigans, gen exploration, etc). From that perspective, a game that places a focus on the encounter while also heavily defining what a character can do within the encounter [I]seems[/I] to be not player-focused, and yet you are saying that it is. (note: I'm not saying one or the other is good for roleplaying, but trying to understand what exactly hinges on rolling initiative and being [I]in[/I] vs [I]out[/I] of an encounter). 1a. To take a specific example, the Dragonlance modules are lambasted for being railroads because the attempt to create a paced, high fantasy epic clashes with the AD&D's focus on picaresque freeplay. Would these type of modules feel more natural in 4e, where each bit of narrative could be treated as an encounter/scene? 2. How does the encounter-as-scene dynamic of 4e compare with explicit storygames (let's say Dungeon World as a good fantasy comp)? It would seem that there might be some similarities, but dungeon world goes the other way and gets rid of initiative all together. Similarly, DW encourages us to "draw maps, leave blanks," as a way of keeping the story-now focus; would 4e work with this same advice? [/QUOTE]
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