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Message: <blockquote data-quote="overgeeked" data-source="post: 8412963" data-attributes="member: 86653">If "story before" is simply the DM having some idea of a situation in mind or even a module to work from, then "story before" was there from before the start of D&D proper. Wesley's Braunsteins and Arneson's Blackmoor game, for example. That seems like an incredibly terrible definition.Those two aren't connected. But then the definition of "story before" as presented is such that literally anything with any planning, i.e. anything that's not 100% pure in the moment improv from start to finish could be called "story before".I played it weekly to monthly for the entire active life of the edition.So is the entire argument about 4E being a story now game based on combat supposedly following that pattern? That's hyper-thin. In my experience, 4E combat was a tedious, samey slog from start to finish. The PCs would nova and focus-fire targets until they were all gone. They would create whatever synergies they could between their powers and abilities and slowly whittle down the opposition. They would rest up, regain their encounter powers, heal up a bit...then go do exactly...exactly the same sequence of actions in the next combat. If that's how loosely you're applying the "story structure" no wonder it looks like 4E is a story now game. It only took a tortured use of story structure and a tortured example of 4E to get it there.It was literally the single most boring edition to actually play. Every fight was nearly identical. The only variables were the dice, the size of the room, and whatever (if any) random elements were involved, such as a trap, terrain, or skill challenge. The PCs would find strategies and synergies that work and spam them until the fight was over or the required resources ran out. They'd then move on to the next strategy and synergy...until the required resources ran out or the fight was over...then they'd switch to the next strategy and synergy until the required resources ran out or the fight was over. The fights were almost all exactly the same for what...6 years. I had to design a homebrew freeform power system just to get the players to stop using the exact same powers, in the exact same sequence combat after combat after combat.So you're defining story structure as "a conflict exists, things get tense, then resolve"? Literally every combat that isn't resolved in the first action would fit that criteria.Not in my experience.Except your ability scores. Strength (Str) measures a character’s muscle, endurance, and stamina. Intelligence (Int) represents a character’s memory, reasoning, and learning ability, including areas outside those measured by the written word. Wisdom (Wis) describes a composite of the character’s enlightenment, judgment, guile, willpower, common sense, and intuition. Dexterity (Dex) encompasses several physical attributes including hand-eye coordination, agility, reaction speed, reflexes, and balance. A character’s Constitution (Con) score encompasses his physique, fitness, health, and physical resistance to hardship, injury, and disease. The Charisma (Cha) score measures a character’s persuasiveness, personal magnetism, and ability to lead. Then there's your race. Your class. Your kit. The languages you speak. Your alignment. Weapon proficiencies. Non-weapon proficiencies. Secondary skills. Along with your money and gear. Sure...nothing. Ability checks are detailed on page 13 of the PHB (revised black cover). They're a core mechanic for AD&D2E.Or a good imagination.That's literally how D&D works. The DM describes the scene, the players describe what they want to do, then the DM adjudicates it. I'm not sure what the complaint here is. You want mechanical widgets that stop the DM from DMing?That shows a distinct lack of imagination on that player's part. Characters have never been limited to what's on their character sheet. The sooner people realize that the better.Only that the conditions necessary for something to work a given way aren't sufficient that it will work that way. The groundwork may be there, but that doesn't mean it will be used that way.Again, that's a rather...strained and basic definition of story structure.Not according to my PHB and DMG. "Sometimes a quest is spelled out for you at the start of an adventure. The town mayor might implore you to find the goblin raiders’ lair, or the priest of Pelor might relate the history of the Adamantine Scepter, before sending you on your quest. Other times, you figure out your quests while adventuring. Once you assemble clues you find, they might turn into new quests. You can also, with your DM’s approval, create a quest for your character" (PHB, p258).And after a quick search, this is the sum total of what the DMG says on the topic:"You should allow and even encourage players to come up with their own quests that are tied to their individual goals or specific circumstances in the adventure. Evaluate the proposed quest and assign it a level. Remember to say yes as often as possible!" (DMG, p103). Not exactly a ringing endorsement much less "put forward as the ideal" as you're claiming. You're drastically overselling player-designed quests. The only mention of a wish list in the Treasure chapter of the DMG is this:"A great way to make sure you give players magic items they’ll be excited about is to ask them for wish lists. At the start of each level, have each player write down a list of three to five items that they are intrigued by that are no more than four levels above their own level. You can choose treasure from those lists" (DMG, p125). Plus the rest of the paragraph detailing how to check things off the list. Not so much with the "put forward as the ideal" you're claiming. Again, drastically overselling this. So both things you're claiming are "put forward as the ideal" actually are not any such thing. They're both options mentioned for the DM to use, should they so choose. Neither is painted as anything close to the "ideal". Yeah, it certainly was great to have non-casters who got cool toys.Another quick search of the Classes book yields the word "theme" mentioned a few times in relations to characters classes (surprise), but nothing else. Care to provide a page number to point me to the actual text you're using to support this claim?</blockquote>

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