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Ron Edwards on D&D 4e
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 8415711" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>Upthread I described "story before" in this way: <em>story before - where someone (typically the GM or the module author) writes the story which the players play through</em>.</p><p></p><p>Does that describe Arneson or Wesley's game? Not as best I understand them. Those games are not story before. Nor are they story now. They certainly support story after.</p><p></p><p>In my post that you replied to in your post that I'm now quoting, I said</p><p></p><p>So why would you think that wargamey play like Blackmoor or Braunstein is <em>story before</em>?</p><p></p><p></p><p>How is is strained? Or basic? That's what a story is: rising action driven by some sort of conflict or challenge, resulting in a climax and a moment of resolution, in which the conflict or challenge culminates and the protagonist either prevails or is defeated.</p><p></p><p></p><p>No.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I played 4e every two to four weeks for about 8 years. I did not have the experience that you describe.</p><p></p><p>The first combat that I ran in 4e - for 1st level PCs - involved the PCs in a boat brought to a halt in a river (by a chain strung from bank to bank), being shot at by a slinger on one bank, and with enemies approaching on a raft and in the water. They did not nova, and did not focus-fire: that wasn't possible given the terrain, the disposition of enemy forces, and the PCs' own movement capabilities. Some took cover on a nearby sandbar; some took control of the raft and used that to take the fight up to the slinger.</p><p></p><p>The only way in which that and other fights was identical is that they mostly involved different considerations of movement, disposition of forces, etc. Here are some examples from mid-Heroic tier:</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Given how large combat looms in 4e action resolution, I wouldn't have played it as often as you seemed to if I had found it a tedious slog. And I think clearly in this respect at least Ron Edwards and I are like-minded.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I think you might be generalising from your own case here, beyond what the evidence will bear! I'm not you.</p><p></p><p>I've got dozens of 4e actual play posts on these boards. <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/session-report-reposted-pcs-stave-of-the-dusk-war-by-negotiating-with-yan-c-bin-and-defeating-the-tarrasque.490454/" target="_blank">Here's one</a>, from upper Epic tier. These will show why I regard 4e as a story now game.</p><p></p><p></p><p>All you've pointed to here are descriptors, some of which are numerically rated. You have not pointed to any resources that will permit me to proactively engage the fiction.</p><p></p><p>Suppose, for instance, that I say <em>I go looking for someone who has heard about what The Boss is up to</em>. What happens next? Do I have any chance of finding out what I want to? The system offers nothing except <em>the GM will tell you</em>.</p><p></p><p>I am looking at p 11 of an original version 2nd ed AD&D PHB. Under the glossary entry "ability check" it says <em>a 1d20 roll against one of your character's ability scores (modifiers may be added to or subtracted from the die roll.) A result that is equal to or less than your character's ability score indicates that the attempted action succeeds</em>. That's not a core mechanic. It's not a mechanic at all! What actions can be attempted? Eg can I declare <em>I pray to the gods to deliver me from my enemies </em>and then make a check to see if my prayer is answered?</p><p></p><p>2nd ed AD&D has nothing like a skill challenge framework, or a system of player-authored quests, which allows a player to proactively engage the fiction in the way that 4e does.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm not complaining about anything. I'm observing a difference between 4e D&D and 2nd ed AD&D. In the former it's not the case that all I can do is say what my PC does and wonder how the GM will adjudicate it. The skill challenge framework establishes a systematic process for adjudication. If I succeed in my check then I know how the GM must adjudicate it - I (and the other PCs I'm acting with) advance closer to my (our) overall game.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't think it's your place to be insulting someone you've almost certainly never met and moreso have never played with.</p><p></p><p>Compare an archer-ranger to a warlock. The warlock brings a patron to the table. The warlock almost certainly has condition infliction in combat. And the warlock has CHA as a good stat and hence probably is well-placed to declare social actions out of combat. The archer-ranger deals damage, perhaps has a little bit of personal mobility (enhanced, most likely, by Acrobatics) but does not bring any default thematic content to the table.</p><p></p><p>I'm frankly surprised that this is controversial. </p><p></p><p></p><p>I read <em>You should allow and even encourage</em> and<em> Remember to say yes as often as possible! </em>and <em>A great way</em> as presenting an ideal. You read it as . . . lukewarm advocacy? (I'm not sure.)</p><p></p><p></p><p>Dwarves were once slaves of giants. Tieflings are descended from the Hells. They are the remnants of an ancient empire whose rival was the Dragonborn. Eladrin are from the Feywild; Elves and Half-Elves have broken from that fey heritage in various ways and to various degrees. Clerics and paladins serve gods who (mostly - some are less interesting eg Avandra, Melora) have a history and orientation in relation to the Dawn War and the present cosmological tension and struggle. Warlocks have pacts. Warlords are directly bound up with the fate of their allies.</p><p></p><p>The thematic elements are (in my view) obvious across the game.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 8415711, member: 42582"] Upthread I described "story before" in this way: [I]story before - where someone (typically the GM or the module author) writes the story which the players play through[/I]. Does that describe Arneson or Wesley's game? Not as best I understand them. Those games are not story before. Nor are they story now. They certainly support story after. In my post that you replied to in your post that I'm now quoting, I said So why would you think that wargamey play like Blackmoor or Braunstein is [I]story before[/I]? How is is strained? Or basic? That's what a story is: rising action driven by some sort of conflict or challenge, resulting in a climax and a moment of resolution, in which the conflict or challenge culminates and the protagonist either prevails or is defeated. No. I played 4e every two to four weeks for about 8 years. I did not have the experience that you describe. The first combat that I ran in 4e - for 1st level PCs - involved the PCs in a boat brought to a halt in a river (by a chain strung from bank to bank), being shot at by a slinger on one bank, and with enemies approaching on a raft and in the water. They did not nova, and did not focus-fire: that wasn't possible given the terrain, the disposition of enemy forces, and the PCs' own movement capabilities. Some took cover on a nearby sandbar; some took control of the raft and used that to take the fight up to the slinger. The only way in which that and other fights was identical is that they mostly involved different considerations of movement, disposition of forces, etc. Here are some examples from mid-Heroic tier: Given how large combat looms in 4e action resolution, I wouldn't have played it as often as you seemed to if I had found it a tedious slog. And I think clearly in this respect at least Ron Edwards and I are like-minded. I think you might be generalising from your own case here, beyond what the evidence will bear! I'm not you. I've got dozens of 4e actual play posts on these boards. [url=https://www.enworld.org/threads/session-report-reposted-pcs-stave-of-the-dusk-war-by-negotiating-with-yan-c-bin-and-defeating-the-tarrasque.490454/]Here's one[/url], from upper Epic tier. These will show why I regard 4e as a story now game. All you've pointed to here are descriptors, some of which are numerically rated. You have not pointed to any resources that will permit me to proactively engage the fiction. Suppose, for instance, that I say [I]I go looking for someone who has heard about what The Boss is up to[/I]. What happens next? Do I have any chance of finding out what I want to? The system offers nothing except [I]the GM will tell you[/I]. I am looking at p 11 of an original version 2nd ed AD&D PHB. Under the glossary entry "ability check" it says [I]a 1d20 roll against one of your character's ability scores (modifiers may be added to or subtracted from the die roll.) A result that is equal to or less than your character's ability score indicates that the attempted action succeeds[/I]. That's not a core mechanic. It's not a mechanic at all! What actions can be attempted? Eg can I declare [I]I pray to the gods to deliver me from my enemies [/I]and then make a check to see if my prayer is answered? 2nd ed AD&D has nothing like a skill challenge framework, or a system of player-authored quests, which allows a player to proactively engage the fiction in the way that 4e does. I'm not complaining about anything. I'm observing a difference between 4e D&D and 2nd ed AD&D. In the former it's not the case that all I can do is say what my PC does and wonder how the GM will adjudicate it. The skill challenge framework establishes a systematic process for adjudication. If I succeed in my check then I know how the GM must adjudicate it - I (and the other PCs I'm acting with) advance closer to my (our) overall game. I don't think it's your place to be insulting someone you've almost certainly never met and moreso have never played with. Compare an archer-ranger to a warlock. The warlock brings a patron to the table. The warlock almost certainly has condition infliction in combat. And the warlock has CHA as a good stat and hence probably is well-placed to declare social actions out of combat. The archer-ranger deals damage, perhaps has a little bit of personal mobility (enhanced, most likely, by Acrobatics) but does not bring any default thematic content to the table. I'm frankly surprised that this is controversial. I read [I]You should allow and even encourage[/I] and[I] Remember to say yes as often as possible! [/I]and [I]A great way[/I] as presenting an ideal. You read it as . . . lukewarm advocacy? (I'm not sure.) Dwarves were once slaves of giants. Tieflings are descended from the Hells. They are the remnants of an ancient empire whose rival was the Dragonborn. Eladrin are from the Feywild; Elves and Half-Elves have broken from that fey heritage in various ways and to various degrees. Clerics and paladins serve gods who (mostly - some are less interesting eg Avandra, Melora) have a history and orientation in relation to the Dawn War and the present cosmological tension and struggle. Warlocks have pacts. Warlords are directly bound up with the fate of their allies. The thematic elements are (in my view) obvious across the game. [/QUOTE]
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