Rope Trick VS Discern Location... Rope Trick wins!!!

[anest1s]

Wouldn't it be fun to learn that your enemy is currently hiding inside a bag of devouring?

 

[Jimlock]

Wouldn't it be fun to learn that your enemy is currently hiding inside a bag of devouring?

Hmm... Makes one wonder what would happen if a caster attempted to Discern Location on a creature that is hidden in a Bag of Holding...

The bag of holding opens into a nondimensional space: Its inside is larger than its outside dimensions.

...and there's the fact that a Bag of Holding is "based" on Secret Chest, which says:

You hide a chest on the Ethereal Plane for as long as sixty days and can retrieve it at will.

....weird stuf....

 

[Drowbane]

and that Bags of Devouring are the innards of extraplanar (Astral? Ethereal? Far Realms?) creatures that eventually digest objects within them in a completely random fashion.

 

[KerlanRayne]

OK, how about a multiple choice scenario. Say a wizard is in his home. He's in his lab and there is a portal in the room with him. What would you say that Discern Location would give you if he went through the portal and ended up in:

1. Plane of Earth
2. His own demiplane
3. Rope Trick pocket dimension

What's the difference between these three that would affect the outcome? Is it the size? Permanence? Plane vs Dimension?

 

[Greenfield]

Well, the Plane of Earth has locations, even if they only make sense to someone who speaks Terran.

Demiplanes exist within the structure of the multiverse, so if he was in, say, his own private Genesis demiplane, that demiplane itself has a location. (It's in the Ethereal plane.)

Rope Trick creates a pocket dimension that sits outside of the multiversal assemblage of planes. It has no name, and no discernible location relative to any other plane, other than the one from which it was cast.. So the only reference point would be the anchor point.

What makes the difference? The first two have identifiable locations, either within the plane itself, or within the multiversal structure. They have known names as well.

The last one lacks all of those.

And as far as I know, there is no functional difference between a Dimension and a Plane. They're simply different words for the same thing.

Regarding the Bag of Holding: The contents never leave whichever plane the bag is on. It's a non-dimensional space, rather than an extra-dimensional space. Functionally, it's a container that happens to be bigger on the inside than it is on the outside. Or, if you prefer, a special state of space where physical dimensions as we understand them don't really exist. But the location of that space is clearly identifiable: It's inside the bag, which has a definite physical location.

 

[Sekhmet]

[MENTION=6669384]Greenfield[/MENTION]
The Rope Trick spell equates dimensions to planes, and further states that it is extradimensional to the multiverse of planes.

 

[Greenfield]

Which more or less matches what I've just said. Thanks for the confirmation, though.

 

[anest1s]

Rope Trick creates a pocket dimension that sits outside of the multiversal assemblage of planes. It has no name, and no discernible location relative to any other plane, other than the one from which it was cast.. So the only reference point would be the anchor point.

What makes the difference? The first two have identifiable locations, either within the plane itself, or within the multiversal structure. They have known names as well.

No doubt, every plane (or most of them) has "anchor points" (rifts or portals to other planes).

The problem with pointing where the anchor points are is that according to the spell, it doesn't work that way. It has no obligation to tell you how to get there, or to inform you how you can reach your target - only the name of the plane it is in.

 

[Greenfield]

And if the plane has no name? Then it would give it's location. For example, a Genesis spawned demi-plane would be identified by its location in the Ethereal Plane.

So the unnamed plane from the Rope Trick could only be identified by its location. Except it has no location, other than the position of the only portal to it.

Now I suppose the caster could name his Rope Trick plane, but it would be up to the DM to decide if simply applying a personal label, known to nobody else, is in any way meaningful.

Think of it this way, you're on a ship called the Pequod. But you like to think of it as the Amnesia. You're in the Sea of Swords, but you like to think of it as the Stormy Sea.

What names would a Discern Location provide? Obviously, the names these are actually known by, so if you give a very temporary plane a name, and it isn't actually known by that name to anyone outside it, the only person you're likely to fool is yourself.

 

[anest1s]

And if the plane has no name? Then it would give it's location. For example, a Genesis spawned demi-plane would be identified by its location in the Ethereal Plane.

the spell reveals the name of the creature or object’s location (place, name, business name, building name, or the like), community, county (or similar political division), country, continent, and the plane of existence where the target lies.

Would it?
-The spell doesn't say you "identify the location" only that you get some names. So if the plane has no name, bad luck.
-If someone is in a Genesis plane, and it has a name, then you learn the name of the Genesis plane. The Genesis plane isn't inside the Ethereal plane, it just borders with it.

Even if it was part of the Ethereal Plane, then you would still learn either that the target is on the "Ethereal plane", or that the target is on the "Genesis plane". Because you get only 1 name for "plane of existence where the target lies".

So the unnamed plane from the Rope Trick could only be identified by its location. Except it has no location, other than the position of the only portal to it.

Discern location doesn't "identify" the location of the target...it just tells its name.If it hasn't a name, it can't do something extra to explain what plane is that.

Now I suppose the caster could name his Rope Trick plane, but it would be up to the DM to decide if simply applying a personal label, known to nobody else, is in any way meaningful.

Think of it this way, you're on a ship called the Pequod. But you like to think of it as the Amnesia. You're in the Sea of Swords, but you like to think of it as the Stormy Sea.

What names would a Discern Location provide? Obviously, the names these are actually known by, so if you give a very temporary plane a name, and it isn't actually known by that name to anyone outside it, the only person you're likely to fool is yourself.

Obviously? Nope, I would say its up to luck what name discern location will provide. Except if in-game there is somewhere a book that states the legal names for every location possible for the purposes of discern location. I don't think it is possible for such a book to exist out-of-game however.

If it works with "how most ppl would name that thing" then the rope trick is just named "Rope Trick ". You don't get to name it "Plane next to the x wall in x dungeon" because 1) You don't decide its name as a minority 2) Even if you did, you don't know its location. 3) Even if the creator was smart enough to call it "Plane next to the x wall in x dungeon" it still wouldn't be named like that, because most ppl call those things "Rope Tricks".


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the spell reveals the name of the creature or object’s location (place, name, business name, building name, or the like), community, county (or similar political division), country, continent, and the plane of existence where the target lies.

Also, it looks like that standing or sitting works as a measure to prevent Discern Location.

Yeah I know some of you will argue that this only blocks the name of the plane of existence.