Rope Trick - What is the 'hazard'?

[Ninja-to]

Ok short and simple.

Rope Trick states that 'it is hazardous to bring an extra-dimensional space into another existing extra-dimensional space'. After a long perusal and hair pulling, I finally found out (realized) that the only extra-dimensional spaces mentioned anywhere else in the Core books are for the magic item description of the Portable Hole. As far as I can tell this is the only place. Not important.

What is important are my next two questions.

1. If it is 'hazardous', then what is the hazard??

2. If we assume consistency, then not only would an extra-dimensional space cause some ill effect, but also a non-dimensional space taken into the Rope Trick would cause something bad to happen too. (For example, putting a Bag of Holding (non-dimensional) into a Portable Hole (extra-dimensional) causes Astral Plane rift issues. However, using a Quiver of Ehlona inside a Portable Hole apparantly has no ill side effects.) So, is this the case? Does taking a non-dimensional space into a Rope Trick also have an ill effect, as it does in nearly every other situation. If so, then again, question 1: What is the ill effect?

I have wracked my brains on this, and posted on another forum but nobody has been able to answer these questions.

I think this one is a job for WotC... how do I send them this question? Is there an email address specifically for stuff like this?

 

[The Amazing Dingo]

I think this one is a job for WotC... how do I send them this question? Is there an email address specifically for stuff like this?

Sorry I don't know the answer to your question. However, chances are that WotC's Customer Service section will be even worse. The answers are rarely consistant (as several people here have testified) and they have goofed several times also (as told by others on other occasions).

Good luck with this one.

 

[Thanee]

Well... one consistent way would be to have all those extra/non-dimensional spaces wreak havoc if they are brought together.

Theat option would automatically lead to these items being of no use whatsoever, as it would be way too dangerous to carry them around, as whenever you enter a wizard's tower, for example, you could end up being sucked into the Astral Plane .

Therefore I very much prefer another alternative:

Non-dimensional spaces, like Bags of Holding, Handy Haversacks, and the likes can freely be carried into or used inside an extra-dimensional space, i.e. a Rope Trick or Magnificient Mansion, with no chance of anything bad happening at all. Also non-dimensional spaces can be put into each other without any problems. This overrules the Portable Hole description for consistency's sake; nothing happens, if a Bag of Holding is placed inside, or vice versa.

However, creating another extra-dimensional space inside an extra-dimensional space, like a Rope Trick inside a Magnificient Mansion, or opening a Portable Hole inside a Rope Trick (it's ok, to carry the item inside, as long as it isn't opened), does have hazardrous consequences, similar to what the Portable Hole description says, specifics are subject to DM decision.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Iku Rex]

Ok short and simple.

Rope Trick states that 'it is hazardous to bring an extra-dimensional space into another existing extra-dimensional space'. After a long perusal and hair pulling, I finally found out (realized) that the only extra-dimensional spaces mentioned anywhere else in the Core books are for the magic item description of the Portable Hole. As far as I can tell this is the only place. Not important.

(Extradimensional "spaces": Mirror of Life Trapping, Mage’s Magnificent Mansion (spell) , Maze (spell) .)

1. If it is 'hazardous', then what is the hazard??

Unknown.

Main 3.0 FAQ:

Will extradimensional items rupture a bag of holding?
The DUNGEON MASTER’s Guide says that a bag of holding
placed within a portable hole tears a rift to the Astral Plane.
Bag and hole alike are then sucked into the void and
forever lost. The DUNGEON MASTER’s Guide also says that
when a portable hole is placed within a bag of holding, it
opens a gate to the Astral Plane. The hole, the bag, and any
creatures within a 10-foot radius are drawn there,
destroying the portable hole and bag of holding in the
process. However, the description for Heward’s handy
haversack makes no mention of any rifts or gates. This
implies that only the combination of a bag of holding and
portable hole forms a rift or gate. Thus, a bag of holding
could be placed inside another bag of holding with no
unusual effects.

It’s a general rule that you can’t mix items containing
nondimensional or extradimensional spaces (things that are
bigger inside than out) with each other or with portable holes.
Such combinations tend to strain the fabric of the cosmos.
Putting one bag of holding within another is just like putting
the bag into a portable hole. Items that function like bags of
holding, such as Heward’s handy haversacks, cause the same
mishaps when mishandled.
Note you can freely go plane hopping with portable holes,
bags of holding, and the like. Spells that produce their own
extradimensional spaces, such as rope trick, pose no danger to
occupants who may be using portable holes, bags of holding,
and the like.

2. If we assume consistency, then not only would an extra-dimensional space cause some ill effect, but also a non-dimensional space taken into the Rope Trick would cause something bad to happen too. (For example, putting a Bag of Holding (non-dimensional) into a Portable Hole (extra-dimensional) causes Astral Plane rift issues. However, using a Quiver of Ehlona inside a Portable Hole apparantly has no ill side effects.) So, is this the case? Does taking a non-dimensional space into a Rope Trick also have an ill effect, as it does in nearly every other situation. If so, then again, question 1: What is the ill effect?

"Nondimensional" seems to mean the same thing as "extradimensional" (they're used interchangeably in the description of the portable hole as far as I can see).

I think this one is a job for WotC... how do I send them this question? Is there an email address specifically for stuff like this?

Try sageadvice@paizo.com .

(Or just go with Thanee's excellent suggestion.)

 

[Scion]

I have never seen anything in the core about it. Really, the portable hole + bag of holding seems like a special case, not a general rule.

What we do in my games is simply make it fhat while one extra storage unit is in another it cannot be accessed, ie if you open it then it is a nonspace and cannot be used properly until leaving the space.

It has little effect generally except to make things a little more difficult sometimes in the rope trick

Want to put a bag of holding in a bag of holding? go for it. Of course, it will take that much longer to retrieve whatever is in the second one. So if you really need that item better hope it isnt stored away in a multicombo of bags!

Generally the cost of such items is more prohibitive than the weight. Beng able to save yourself that extra 2lbs isnt going to break the game, plus it takes more storage weight away from the other object.

 

[Darren]

I think this one is a job for WotC... how do I send them this question? Is there an email address specifically for stuff like this?

custserv@wizards.com

Contact info about questions can be found in the D&D FAQ on the wizards website. But as others have said it's not always consistent. I've experienced this myself when writing to them about some of the craft rules...

I do think Thanee has a very nice and reasonable house rule though.

 

[Ninja-to]

Spells that produce their own
extradimensional spaces, such as rope trick, pose no danger to
occupants who may be using portable holes, bags of holding,
and the like.

"Nondimensional" seems to mean the same thing as "extradimensional" (they're used interchangeably in the description of the portable hole as far as I can see).


On another forum, someone pointed out that extra and non dimensional is in fact differently used. If you check the magic items, the non dimensional items only adjust weight carried (bag of holding, hewards haversack), not nulify it, while extra dimensional items (portable hole) have no weight at all. While this isn't exactly proof, it does seem that they're intended to be different.

I actually agreed with your idea originally, that was my arguement (that they're both the same thing, non and extra dimensions) but I'm willing to believe that there's supposed to be a difference.

Also, it says in the spell desription, page 273:
"Note, it is hazardous to create an extra-dimensional space within an existing extra-dimensional space or to take an extra-dimensional space into an existing one."

So there definitiely is an ill effect of some sort by taking a portable hole into a rope trick. The question is of course the same. What is the ill effect? I still think it's the same Astral Rift issue. Also, again, would this apply to taking in a Bag of Holding?

Some good responses so far, but I think we need official clarification on this. The post you put up was for 3.0, so maybe something's changed in 3.5. Who knows. :\

 

[Iku Rex]

On another forum, someone pointed out that extra and non dimensional is in fact differently used. If you check the magic items, the non dimensional items only adjust weight carried (bag of holding, hewards haversack), not nulify it, while extra dimensional items (portable hole) have no weight at all. While this isn't exactly proof, it does seem that they're intended to be different.

Each portable hole opens on its own particular nondimensional space. -- portable hole

So even if a selection of 1 was a good basis for conclusions, the portable hole is as much a "nonimensional item" as a bag of holding.

Some good responses so far, but I think we need official clarification on this. The post you put up was for 3.0, so maybe something's changed in 3.5. Who knows. :\

None of the relevant rules have changed in 3.5. (The wording of some may have been slightly adjusted). There is no reason to think the FAQ answer no longer applies.

See for yourself:
3.0 SRD
3.5 SRD

 

[Ninja-to]

Each portable hole opens on its own particular nondimensional space. -- portable hole

So even if a selection of 1 was a good basis for conclusions, the portable hole is as much a "nonimensional item" as a bag of holding.

None of the relevant rules have changed in 3.5. (The wording of some may have been slightly adjusted). There is no reason to think the FAQ answer no longer applies.

See for yourself:
3.0 SRD
3.5 SRD

No, a Portable Hole opens an 'EXTRA-dimensional space'. Read the description.

The problem was, and still is, what is the hazard?? And is there in fact a difference bettween non-dimensional and extra-dimensional as many claim?

Edit: HOLY @#$@!!!! The description uses both extra and non!!!! OMG!

So, this is VERY strong evidence that non-dimensional and extra are indeed the exact same....!!!!

Getting closer to a solution here... but if the FAQ in 3.0 said taking a Portable Hole into a Rope Trick was 'ok', then what the hells is 'hazardous' about taking an extra-dimensional space into a Rope Trick?? Doesn't make any sense.

 

[Squire James]

Warning: House rules ahead. Relying purely on RAW for my answers is definitely not my intent here!

Since the RAW is unclear on this, I ruled that all "extra-dimensional" and "non-dimensional" spaces are actually small structures within the Astral Plane (ie: "buildings" the size of the space's maximum size). Poking holes in them from the Prime side, or inserting bigger "astral structures" into them, cause a rift into the Astral Plane. It's probably the cheapest form of planar travel at low level, if you don't mind being a bit random!

Putting a smaller "astral structure" within a larger one just takes up a bunch of space, as much as the item's carrying capacity. Since all such "structures" are nearly invulnerable to damage in Astral space (hardness 20 or so) and do not "open" from this side, getting to your stuff within other "astral structures" is usually not possible while you are within one yourself!