RotG: Sneak Attack IV

[Joshua Randall]

I think the whole "you can sneak attack with a spell" thing is wonky. Especially considering that sneak attack evolved from the thief's backstab ability, which didn't apply to spells. It would certainly avoid a lot of rules debates to say that you can only sneak attack with an actual, physical weapon. Oh well... now I'll banish myself to House Rules.

 

[DarkMaster]

I think the whole "you can sneak attack with a spell" thing is wonky. Especially considering that sneak attack evolved from the thief's backstab ability, which didn't apply to spells. It would certainly avoid a lot of rules debates to say that you can only sneak attack with an actual, physical weapon. Oh well... now I'll banish myself to House Rules.

But don't forget that in previous edition multiclassing was not well supported. I think that the designer evolved the backstab ability quite nicely. If you can sneak attack with a bow why not with a spell, I mean wheter you get an arrow or a scorching ray in the head it will hurt badly at least more than getting it in the leg.

 

[mhd]

Personally I think that the house rule seems rather acceptable, but with the slight addition that if you ignore the Rogue, then you don't just get an AoO, but he can sneak on his turn. If you can sneak someone when he's severely distracted (i.e. flanked) than you should be able to sneak someone when he's completely ignoring you just fine. A moot point anyway, as anyone who just got sneaked will certainly turn his attention on the sneaking character anyway.

But quite worthwile for the rock-and-a-hard-place duo, e.g. a rogue and a enraged barbarian. Just following the letter of the house rule (unless I'm mistaken), Theodore Troll could just concentrate on Bob the Barbarian while ignorin the measly pinpricks of the rapier-wielding Roderick Rogue.

Now about spells... I have no big problems with the rules here, they don't unbalance the game that much -- if every player of mine would turn AT, then I would just take a hint from console RPGs and unleash the Dread Slime Hordes of Doom! But the logical aspect kinda disturbs me. It's bad enough with some weapons, but some spells really break me picturing the sneak attack.

I always imagined SA's as targeting vital spots, hitting where it hurts etc. Backstabbing. Now the rogue attacks with a 1st level Fire Orb. That spell doesn't really cause that much penetration damage, more a large surface area -- which is nasty enough, but targeting the vitals with it? Melf's Acid Arrow, okay... No big deal in the end, just devise a "Demi-magical Missile", doing 1d4 damage, but requiring an attack roll. Under-powered normally, but just right for a sneaker. But a lot easier on the imagination (30 pts of damage from a fire orb doesn't evoke a precise hit but burning the opponent to a stump)

Anyone sharing this severe lack of imagination? I know, simplicity's sake, abstract combat system, yadda yadda...

 

[Chroma]

A sticky question...

Do you get sneak attack damage when you use a tanglefoot bag on someone?

How about holy water against an evil outsider?

 

[jessemock]

Anyone sharing this severe lack of imagination? I know, simplicity's sake, abstract combat system, yadda yadda...

Absolutely. This is one of those times when 'abstract' becomes a pejorative.

I guess if the guy is off-balance then the 'negative energy' both loses some of its potency and hits him better.

There's probably room for one of those 'hit points aren't physical' routines in here, but, if somebody's sneak-attacking with enervation already...

Nevermind.

 

[mhd]

Do you get sneak attack damage when you use a tanglefoot bag on someone?

The target gets -4 to dexterity, he isn't denied his bonus, so nope. Even when his feet are forced in one direction and you're standing behind him... (Should look silly, though.)

How about holy water against an evil outsider?

Good one. Requires a ranged attack, does damage... Seems to fulfill all the criteria. Still, seems rather illogical to me, as its a "splash weapon". Same for alchemist's fire, same for critical hits with both. Definitley not in my campaign(s)...

 

[Chroma]

The target gets -4 to dexterity, he isn't denied his bonus, so nope. Even when his feet are forced in one direction and you're standing behind him... (Should look silly, though.)

I don't mean when a target's stuck, I mean when you attack a target with it! *laugh* It's a ranged touch attack to use it. Enervation doesn't do actual "damage" yet allows (technically) sneak attack damage.

I agree that it all seems a little silly, but I think it's things like this that should've been clarified/discussed in articles about the rules of sneak attack.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Personally I think that the house rule seems rather acceptable, but with the slight addition that if you ignore the Rogue, then you don't just get an AoO, but he can sneak on his turn.

Well, you might notice the house rule states that when you ignore someone, you're denied your Dex bonus. And since it's not actually due to being flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker (as opposed to the Gaze Attack version of this tactic), Uncanny Dodge won't help.

So yes, if you're ignoring someone, you can be sneak attacked.

Enervation doesn't do actual "damage" yet allows (technically) sneak attack damage.

A spell that "deals damage" was defined in Tome and Blood as one that inflicts hit point damage, ability damage, or negative levels.

Enervation qualifies; a tanglefoot bag doesn't.

Requires a ranged attack, does damage... Seems to fulfill all the criteria. Still, seems rather illogical to me, as its a "splash weapon".

Well, you can't sneak attack (or deal a critical) with an area attack. So the splash damage can't deal extra sneak attack damage. The direct hit, on the other hand, can.

A wizard/rogue could sneak attack with a directed-sphere Meteor Swarm, but not with the blast damage, for example.

-Hyp.

 

[mhd]

I don't mean when a target's stuck, I mean when you attack a target with it! *laugh* It's a ranged touch attack to use it. Enervation doesn't do actual "damage" yet allows (technically) sneak attack damage.

Sick idea
Just some slight problems: First, a tanglefoot bag isn't a spell. Second, Skip explicitely mentions what qualifies a spell for potential sneak attacks.

Any spell that requires an attack roll and deals damage can be used in a sneak attack. In this case "damage" is normal damage, nonlethal damage, ability damage, or energy drain.

Tanglefoot bags reduce the dexterity, but it isn't technically ability damage. No use for sneak attacks here. Even a hit to the head on a critical and thus suffocation damage seems out of line, as the characters is definitely aiming at his feet...

Inflict Wounds seems to qualify, though. Nasty. Even with just one level of evil cleric you get loads of them, allowing you to sneak rather often with a mere touch attack.

If that's possible, it could be concluded, that the opposite is possible true, i.e. sneaking undead with Cure Wound spells...

 

[Hypersmurf]

If that's possible, it could be concluded, that the opposite is possible true, i.e. sneaking undead with Cure Wound spells...

Absolutely. It requires an attack roll, and it deals lethal damage.

So you roll your spell damage, then roll your sneak attack damage, and then the DM reminds you that undead are immune to sneak attacks and critical hits, so he ignores all your sneak damage...

-Hyp.