[RPG Advocacy] Help Rate Game Difficulty

[BluSponge]

Hey everyone,

Next week I'm helping to give a presentation on tabletop roleplaying in the library at the Texas Library Association Convention in Austin. As part of the presentation, we would like to post sort of a quick and dirty guide to RPGs for librarians. It isn't meant to be in-depth or comprehensive (not by a long shot!). It simply lists a selection of commercially available rpgs, followed by the publisher (with website), the genre, the core books required, and available support products categories (accessories, sourcebooks, adventures, fiction, computer games, etc.).

One thing we'd like to offer is a difficulty rating: on a scale of 1 to 10, how difficult is it to learn and play the core rules. And this is where I need help. See, this sort of rating system is subjective at best. I'm sure there are some MENSA guy online here who found HERO to be a snap, but struggles with Barbarians of Lemuria. So what I'd like to do is post the list of RPGs we are including and have anyone who cares to rate their difficulty as he or she sees them.

This is meant to be an aid for librarians introducing RPG programs for kids and/or adults, often taking on the reins themselves with no prior experience. Please try to be objective. The idea is to rate each RPG, on a 1 to 10 scale, on how difficult the rules are to learn and play. Please try to judge each RPG individually. Don't feel the need to rate any RPG you are not familiar with. In the end, we'll average the ratings and that's how we'll present them. And please, don't suggest additional RPGs to add. We're down to the wire on this one as is and adding new games just isn't in the cards at this stage. The point isn't to be comprehensive, the point is to be a useful starting point.

Here are the RPGs we are listing:
Dungeons and Dragons (4th edition)
Pathfinder
World of Darkness (nWoD)
Dragon Age (Green Ronin)
Doctor Who: Adventures in Time and Space
Exalted (2nd edition)
Savage Worlds
Gamma World (4e-based)
The Dresden Files
Castles and Crusades
Smallville
Leverage
Supernatural
Shadowrun (4th edition)
Shattered Empires (Paradigm Concepts)
Witch Hunter: The Invisible World
Traveller (Mongoose edition)
Earthdawn (3rd edition)
Hollow Earth Expedition
Mutants and Masterminds (3rd edition)

Thank you very much for your help!

Tom

 

[nedjer]

This list of largely games of yesteryear, many having been designed 20 or 30 years ago, is packed with cliched 400+ page rule sets at a time when the hobby is moving towards more accessible and innovative rule sets. It's a bit like considering the Top 10 Pop hits of 1986 representative of today's music scene.

Take D&D itself. 4e is the most 'demanding' and expensive of the current D&D offerings. E6 and Essentials are both more accessible and more likely to be picked up by kids who may move on to full 4e. (They're also less expensive and can be run off the cuff).

The standard model presented has shown itself to be unable to grow the hobby for years without free, more entry level games like Dungeonslayer or Risus to kick start interest. So, I'm afraid you'll be telling those librarians that RPGs are pretty much unchanged, haven't undergone any 'root and branch' design development for 30 years and remain unlikely to be free, accessible and innovative to play.

Worse, I'm afraid, most of these titles are spoon-feeders, i.e. play is often run through pre-packed, fixed narrative add-ons; which undercuts the design gaming and open-ended gameplay elements that can deliver the higher executive skills capable of distinguishing TRPGs from many other learning media.

Each to their own I guess, but when I went to see a bunch of teachers the other week I just stuck Risus on my mobile, PANned it to their mobiles/ tablets with Bluetooth and had them all playing in 20 minutes. Then as they were going gave them the option of popping a microSD card with all free White Box D&D, Treasure, Traveller SRD, Warrior Cats and Dungeonslayers. 192 RPGs delivered to 32 newbies in two hours. All of whom can pass them on with a quick Bluetooth pairing.

 

[S'mon]

I think you're right to stick with popular games over Indie games; if I were going to include an independent RPG it'd be one of the simpler D&D retro-clones, probably Labyrinth Lord which is the slickest & most professional, it has the same strength & acessibility as Moldvay Basic D&D.

Barbarians of Lemuria might be worth including too, though.

 

[S'mon]

I'm listing difficulties for Player, then DM.

Dungeons and Dragons (4th edition): 7/6
Pathfinder: 6/8
Savage Worlds: 5/7
Castles and Crusades: 4/5
Traveller (Mongoose edition): 5/7

 

[nedjer]

I'm listing difficulties for Player, then DM.

Dungeons and Dragons (4th edition): 7/6
Pathfinder: 6/8
Savage Worlds: 5/7
Castles and Crusades: 4/5
Traveller (Mongoose edition): 5/7

Your first post doesn't explain why you'd want to persist with trying to get new players using methods that don't get new players. This outcome is confirmed by your list, which has a lowest difficulty of 4 and an average of about 6. Where are the free, pick it up first time entry options at 2 or 3; which, in cases like White Box D&D and Traveller SRD, are far from being obscure or at all Indie?

We like RPGs already and would happily sit down to read a 7 or 8 Deathwatch for light entertainment. Most potential players need ladders at 1-4 or they're out of there.

 

[S'mon]

Your first post doesn't explain why you'd want to persist with trying to get new players using methods that don't get new players. This outcome is confirmed by your list, which has a lowest difficulty of 4 and an average of about 6. Where are the free, pick it up first time entry options at 2 or 3; which, in cases like White Box D&D and Traveller SRD, are far from being obscure or at all Indie?

We like RPGs already and would happily sit down to read a 7 or 8 Deathwatch for light entertainment. Most potential players need ladders at 1-4 or they're out of there.

The OP specifically said not to bother suggesting alternative RPGs. Were I to do so I'd probably start with Fighting Fantasy (1/1), then Mentzer Red Box Basic (3/3), both of which did get tons of new players and are suitable for 9-11 year-olds.

 

[BluSponge]

Ok, first up, maybe I need to post an example of what I'm going for here. You can check out a page from the rough draft here. Like I said, it's not meant to be a comprehensive resource, more of a starting point.

This list of largely games of yesteryear, many having been designed 20 or 30 years ago, is packed with cliched 400+ page rule sets at a time when the hobby is moving towards more accessible and innovative rule sets.

All of the games on the list are generally widely available in the commercial market. I picked them for a variety of reasons. I may not use all of them in the list. I'm sorry you don't approve of the selection.

Each to their own I guess, but when I went to see a bunch of teachers the other week I just stuck Risus on my mobile, PANned it to their mobiles/ tablets with Bluetooth and had them all playing in 20 minutes. Then as they were going gave them the option of popping a microSD card with all free White Box D&D, Treasure, Traveller SRD, Warrior Cats and Dungeonslayers. 192 RPGs delivered to 32 newbies in two hours. All of whom can pass them on with a quick Bluetooth pairing.

You know, that's great and all. And if I were giving this discussion at a game convention, you'd have an extremely valid point. But these people probably have never touched an RPG, or maybe played one 10+ years ago. I don't anticipate them being able to pick up RISUS and run a multiyear program of evolving characters and storylines with it. I'd love to include a bunch of free, online, indie games. But those generally (with the exception of the retro clones) tend to have terrible follow-up support. They are also generally written for people who already grok RPGs. They don't really bother to explain themselves to complete newbs. I'm not saying all the books on this list do either, which is why I'm polling (trolling?) for objective difficulty ratings from the RPG community rather than just waving my scepter from on high and saying, "D&D 4th edition? That's waaaaay to complicate for you. You should stick to Microlite d20. Besides, it's free!"

I think you're right to stick with popular games over Indie games; if I were going to include an independent RPG it'd be one of the simpler D&D retro-clones, probably Labyrinth Lord which is the slickest & most professional, it has the same strength & acessibility as Moldvay Basic D&D.

Barbarians of Lemuria might be worth including too, though.

I probably will mention the retro-clones in the Q&A, and may include a list of them and where to find them. I considered putting in BoL (I have much love for it on my end), but its generally a one-shot rulebook with very little in the way of support (besides the various spin-offs) that you'd have to special order even from the best game stores.

I'm listing difficulties for Player, then DM.

Thank you! This is what I'm looking for. Not necessarily the split, but hey, I can work with that.

We like RPGs already and would happily sit down to read a 7 or 8 Deathwatch for light entertainment. Most potential players need ladders at 1-4 or they're out of there.

Exactly right Nedjer. And you'll note that Deathwatch/Rogue Trader/Dark Heresy isn't on the list (too dense), nor is WHFRG (too expensive for a large group of players). I also left off GURPS and HERO (toolkit games that have nothing in the way of adventure support), as well as a lot of versions of FATE (ditto). I kept Dresden because its a known fiction license. I would have included Serenity for much the same reason, but its OOP and discontinued. Really, I'm trying to stick to game properties that a librarian would have some support beyond the initial core book, whether adventures or commercial play. The initial list hits all the genres (Gotta have a sci-fi game. Oh right, Traveller!). I may trim it down for the final version but I think its a solid list to go by for what I'm looking to do. Sorry you disagree.

Tell you what, if you'd like to take this off-list to PM, putting together a resource of free, rules lite and innovative RPGs might not be a bad follow up either. But the presentation is Tuesday, so I have to budget my time.

Thanks everyone! Keep those ratings coming!

Tom

 

[nedjer]

The OP specifically said not to bother suggesting alternative RPGs. Were I to do so I'd probably start with Fighting Fantasy (1/1), then Mentzer Red Box Basic (3/3), both of which did get tons of new players and are suitable for 9-11 year-olds.

I rejected that out of hand - part of a generally cavalier attitude. But I guess that's my point: where are the freebies and the 1-4s in the list.

 

[Crothian]

I have not played or ran all of them, but I have played and ran many of them with new people and seen just how easy it is to get people to understand the rules. I'll do like S'mon do and rate player/DM

Dungeons and Dragons (4th edition) 6/4
Pathfinder 6/5
World of Darkness (nWoD) 5/6
Exalted (2nd edition) 8/8
Savage Worlds 3/4
The Dresden Files 4/6
Castles and Crusades 3/3
Supernatural 4/5
Shadowrun (4th edition) 6/7
Witch Hunter: The Invisible World 7/7
Hollow Earth Expedition 4/4
Mutants and Masterminds (3rd edition) 5/6

 

[nedjer]

Ok, first up, maybe I need to post an example of what I'm going for here. You can check out a page from the rough draft here. Like I said, it's not meant to be a comprehensive resource, more of a starting point.



All of the games on the list are generally widely available in the commercial market. I picked them for a variety of reasons. I may not use all of them in the list. I'm sorry you don't approve of the selection.



You know, that's great and all. And if I were giving this discussion at a game convention, you'd have an extremely valid point. But these people probably have never touched an RPG, or maybe played one 10+ years ago. I don't anticipate them being able to pick up RISUS and run a multiyear program of evolving characters and storylines with it. I'd love to include a bunch of free, online, indie games. But those generally (with the exception of the retro clones) tend to have terrible follow-up support. They are also generally written for people who already grok RPGs. They don't really bother to explain themselves to complete newbs. I'm not saying all the books on this list do either, which is why I'm polling (trolling?) for objective difficulty ratings from the RPG community rather than just waving my scepter from on high and saying, "D&D 4th edition? That's waaaaay to complicate for you. You should stick to Microlite d20. Besides, it's free!"



I probably will mention the retro-clones in the Q&A, and may include a list of them and where to find them. I considered putting in BoL (I have much love for it on my end), but its generally a one-shot rulebook with very little in the way of support (besides the various spin-offs) that you'd have to special order even from the best game stores.



Thank you! This is what I'm looking for. Not necessarily the split, but hey, I can work with that.



Exactly right Nedjer. And you'll note that Deathwatch/Rogue Trader/Dark Heresy isn't on the list (too dense), nor is WHFRG (too expensive for a large group of players). I also left off GURPS and HERO (toolkit games that have nothing in the way of adventure support), as well as a lot of versions of FATE (ditto). I kept Dresden because its a known fiction license. I would have included Serenity for much the same reason, but its OOP and discontinued. Really, I'm trying to stick to game properties that a librarian would have some support beyond the initial core book, whether adventures or commercial play. The initial list hits all the genres (Gotta have a sci-fi game. Oh right, Traveller!). I may trim it down for the final version but I think its a solid list to go by for what I'm looking to do. Sorry you disagree.

Tell you what, if you'd like to take this off-list to PM, putting together a resource of free, rules lite and innovative RPGs might not be a bad follow up either. But the presentation is Tuesday, so I have to budget my time.

Thanks everyone! Keep those ratings coming!

Tom

No need to be sorry dude. You posted into the publisher, designer, die-hard gamer lions' den of RPG forums - so for here I was pretty sure I was lending an air of general supportiveness

I'm sure you'll offer a very slick presentation, which will fire the interest and imagination of many of those attending. This has the desirable drip down 'hearts and minds' effect.

Which is, however, exactly why I decided to move away from promoting learning games/ shared gaming solely academically to 'hearts and hearts'.

In current circumstances few libraries have the money to prioritise TRPGs, few know how to create GMs and gaming networks at zero cost, almost none have moved distributing resources to pushing and supporting resources.

This is maybe why many libraries will soon be replaced with wireless download points. Librarians need to add value and the value available in to them is in supporting shared gaming, enabling active learning, supporting the use of digital devices and building community. They need design games to do that or they're simply handing out a book and a module like a Victorian reference library and leaving the clients to muddle along - insert picture of regimented dodos marching

Whether it's your game, at a conference, in a school or a library . . . people's first experience of TRPGs should be getting grabbed by the holy cahonas and spun round the room three times, before ending up in a dishevelled heap in the corner of another room - wearing a hat covered in tropical fruit