RPGing and imagination: a fundamental point

Baker designs and plays games where the players can be each other's nemeses... PVP is a part of his normal range of play, or at least was when I was active on the Burning Wheel Forums. (It's also part of Luke Crane's playstyle repertoire, too. See also the Burning Wheel demo entitled The Sword.) Even when not in full PVP, many of their games

When PVP is an allowed and common part of one's play repertoire, negotiation and consent are much bigger elements than in traditional party-as-allies dynamic.

It's part of why the rules of The Burning Wheel Revised (and BW Gold) make a standard of agreement upon failure and success in terms of effect (in addition to agreement on the method) before the dice may be rolled is a standard rule. In any player initiated action, if the stakes are two high, they can cancel the action and "walk away" from the challenge the roll was to overcome.

It's a part of the general approach of many Forge-influenced designers to include negotiation as part of task resolution and consent to PVP actions on an action by action basis.
This is helpful. Though it is also supportive of the notion that Baker’s insights hold most true for those kinds of games and that the more one deviates from them the less coherent they will be with Bakers framework and thus the more pushback you will see in the form of people saying Bakers words don’t do a great job of describing their game.
 

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I see the point, but I'm not sure we should emphasize the medium as the divide. Open forum roleplay, MUDs and so on are quite specifically computer driven experiences, but are also very much imagination driven.
Even without going that far, VTT’s allow ttrpg’s to be played over the computer.

Though I think somewhere along the line the idea of using one medium to emulate another is always going to be a categorization edge case.
 

Even without going that far, VTT’s allow ttrpg’s to be played over the computer.

Though I think somewhere along the line the idea of using one medium to emulate another is always going to be a categorization edge case.

Hmmm. While there are some practical differences in affect because of how it goes, as someone who transitioned from purely face to face to purely VTT gaming in the last few years (not to mention having been used to being a MUSHer) I'm not sure I buy the premise that just whether you're doing it face to face or via computer changes anything that seems significant for the discussion at hand (or most (but not all) others).
 

Expanding my thoughts a little. Right now I’m thinking of Skyrim. Is a person playing a roleplaying game if they create a persona for their character and then make their decisions on what to do by imagining what that persona would do. Obviously they’ve accepted skyrims premise of play and so they are constrained to creating a personality to imagine that can complete the game.

Contrast that with if the player never imagines a character persona and just treats the PC as a piece on the game board, and the choices presented solely as strategic concerns. Is this person roleplaying?
To fit the category, play must traverse through [imagine]. That can be as output - a mechanic compels [imagine] - or input - a mechanic is invoked by [imagine] and its parameters are possibly set by [imagine].

This does not happen in Skyrim. If one chose to resolutely avoid [imagine] while using a TTRPG text, then yes, one would be using game-as-artifact in a way that removes that instance of use from the category. To remind of an earlier description I gave

Games as Artifacts are Tools
An ambiguity between game as artifact and game as process has been noted by scholars like Bjork and Juul (2012), and Aarseth and Grabarczyk (2018). I think that ambiguity may be resolved by asserting that games as artifacts are tools. As they are grasped by players – tool users – they fabricate mechanisms comprising some number of parts that produce play phenomena. Knowledge about game tool use is formed via sampled, prospective and projected play, and narratives of play. It might appear at times that the tools amount to the play, but that is false. It is the tools as grasped by players, fabricating mechanisms, that amounts to the play. Tool users may grasp tools in dissimilar ways and wield them with dissimilar intents, including as to ends and methods.​
To say that a thing is a tool is to say that there is a tool-user who knows the use of that tool and will use that tool, and to imply a purpose that is not solely the wielding, but the product of the wielding. It is to suppose an ability to obey and to interpret a proper use, without ruling out improper use. The function of a tool is contingent on how a tool-user uses that tool. As players wield game artifacts – tools – to fabricate mechanisms, they may determine properties of those mechanisms. The extent of such determination is variable, for example where some functions are handed over to computers.​
Perforce, Tools are Wielded with Intent. Players are those who have entered-into a game, and in obeying and interpreting its mechanisms are meeting the lusory expectations of other players. According to their grasp of the tools, they fabricate parts including goal-contexts for forming and ranking decisions. Players normally grasp that they are enjoined, but not guaranteed, to achieve such goals. As Reiner Knizia points out (2011), it is having goals, not achieving them, that is important: a matter of intent.​

In summary, a tool can be used in many ways, including in ways that remove it from its original category in that instance. I once used a Fowlers guide to usage to hammer in a nail. While used that way, it stepped outside its normal categorisation as a guide to English language usage. The use injured the copy, lamentably, showing that we can sometimes be disappointed with the results of forays off-piste.

Tabletop or TT and computer or C are mediums though. As such, I don’t think you can reference those labels even with RPG at the end without referencing those mediums.
Just to reiterate that I was using those labels to indicate games that fell within the salient categories. Not really to restrict by medium; in which regard I agree with @Thomas Shey's comment above.

I don’t mind limiting discussion to just ttrpgs but I think conclusions based on just games in that medium leave open the definitional questions of whether the medium and properties derived from that medium are necessary for roleplaying games as a whole or whether we are just defining how some higher level properties associated with role playing games across all mediums appear within that particular medium.

So if I had to rephrase my question - is the necessity ‘to imagine’ in ttrpg’s a specific medium based characteristic that is derived from a more generally applicable medium agnostic characteristic, such that the general characteristic applies to all RPGs but becomes something other than ‘to imagine’ in other mediums.
The requirement that until now has not been medium agnostic, is the requirement for [imagine] to occur in a human brain. I suspect what we're going to find is that [imagine] is not some ineffably mystical phenomena, and could talk about games like Skyrim as requiring [strategize] in a similar light. Seeing as Skyrim takes input from [strategize] occurring in the human brain. That's why up-thread I advocated turning from resistance of the possibility a category of games could work this way, to looking at the features of the cognitive act(s) involved.
 
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Right. This is what was earlier (in this thread or some other) referred as "writer's room" and some people took exception to that.

I’d assume because of the connotations that would have with story games as opposed to RPG’s.

Likely my last contribution to this thread, but this is exactly why I'm mostly not interested in these conversations anymore; the invariable, intentional thread drift toward this preoccupation with connotation of this word or that word. This has become ENWorld and its absolutely insufferable. Its not a conversation I care to have. Its the inverse of both interesting and growth of understanding (individual or collective) of what we're all doing at our various tables.

And the fact that you make the assumption that I care about connotation as it relates to writer's room? Why in the world would you do that? If you're preoccupied with connotation that is fine. But leave me out of it. I'm assuming its me being invoked here because I'm the person who always pushes back against "writer's room" and did just that in this thread most recent.

One more time, here is my problem with "writer's room" as a descriptor for any games that I run.

Its not correct.

Let me say that again for those in the back.

Its not correct.

A correct invocation of the concept of "writer's room" (for that concept to actually mean anything) means the following (which is what happens when a group of people with equal authorship get together to write a script/sketch etc):

1) Group of people.

Ok, we're fine so far.

2) Equal authorship roles and rights across all participants.

We're very much not fine here.

3) The script/sketch-authorship has all of the following salient features:

* There is no binding exogenous procedure or systemic architecture that must be hewn to by the participants. Procedure and structure are not binding. They are opt-out or opt-in at the discretion of the authors.

* A desired arc that is forcibly mapped.

* Following from the above, micro-outcomes that are constituents of that arc are known beforehand and inevitably delivered upon because you cannot attain the desired deterministic play of a forcibly mapped, desired arc without that.

We're very, very, very much not fine here on all three bullet points.




So what is the point of calling "players have significant say in the ingredients that propel a still-totally-up-for-grabs scene and play arc" a "writer's room?" Its fundamentally not true.

Someone may not like the systemization of that amount or type of say that players have in various games. But that "player's say" that someone doesn't like doesn't come close to rising to requisite ingredients for the nomenclature of "writer's room." So its just a bad categorization or descriptor. If you were explaining a game to a new person and just said "its basically like if you're in a writer's room," then you're actively harming their understanding of what they're about to undertake. Same goes for design. If you said to some designer "basically design a game that is a writer's room," you're actively asking someone to design a game that doesn't remotely comport to the process or play of these games.

So its not connotation that bothers me. I don't care about connotation.

its that its demonstrably wrong and harms individual/collective knowledge and communication.

My complaints about mystification of process (regardless of the type of game to be run) come from the exact same foundation. Mystification of process and obscurantism of "what we're doing" (no matter the game) is a net harm because the participants don't all know what they're doing, what skills they should be sharpening, and what they should be focusing on (and what they should be excluding) to bring the game to its "fullest life." And it doesn't matter what type of game is being run. Even if its a full-on railroad where the GM is discretionally abridging player input (or putting an extraordinarily low ceiling on player input) in order to deliver desired micro-outcomes and to forcibly map a desired arc onto play...and the players should be focusing on performative color and affectation while understanding the low ceiling of their mechanical input? Even in that situation, every party would be better off in actualizing their respective roles and the social contract would be better preserved if all participants were transparent about what was going on.
 

It's part of why the rules of The Burning Wheel Revised (and BW Gold) make a standard of agreement upon failure and success in terms of effect (in addition to agreement on the method) before the dice may be rolled is a standard rule. In any player initiated action, if the stakes are two high, they can cancel the action and "walk away" from the challenge the roll was to overcome.
This is not a rule stated in Revised or Gold, that I'm aware of. And the Adventure Burner/Codex says the opposite (building on the Mouse Guard rule of "no weasels").

Right now I’m thinking of Skyrim. Is a person playing a roleplaying game if they create a persona for their character and then make their decisions on what to do by imagining what that persona would do. Obviously they’ve accepted skyrims premise of play and so they are constrained to creating a personality to imagine that can complete the game.

<snip>

I don’t mind limiting discussion to just ttrpgs but I think conclusions based on just games in that medium leave open the definitional questions of whether the medium and properties derived from that medium are necessary for roleplaying games as a whole or whether we are just defining how some higher level properties associated with role playing games across all mediums appear within that particular medium.

So if I had to rephrase my question - is the necessity ‘to imagine’ in ttrpg’s a specific medium based characteristic that is derived from a more generally applicable medium agnostic characteristic, such that the general characteristic applies to all RPGs but becomes something other than ‘to imagine’ in other mediums.
As best I understand Skyrim, resolution of declared action in Skyrim does not require having any reference to any imagined fiction. This is different from a (TT)RPG. And that is something that is fundamental to these games, descended from Arneson and Gygax's game.
 

Likely my last contribution to this thread, but this is exactly why I'm mostly not interested in these conversations anymore; the invariable, intentional thread drift toward this preoccupation with connotation of this word or that word. This has become ENWorld and its absolutely insufferable. Its not a conversation I care to have. Its the inverse of both interesting and growth of understanding (individual or collective) of what we're all doing at our various tables.

And the fact that you make the assumption that I care about connotation as it relates to writer's room? Why in the world would you do that? If you're preoccupied with connotation that is fine. But leave me out of it. I'm assuming its me being invoked here because I'm the person who always pushes back against "writer's room" and did just that in this thread most recent.

One more time, here is my problem with "writer's room" as a descriptor for any games that I run.

Its not correct.

Let me say that again for those in the back.

Its not correct.

A correct invocation of the concept of "writer's room" (for that concept to actually mean anything) means the following (which is what happens when a group of people with equal authorship get together to write a script/sketch etc):

1) Group of people.

Ok, we're fine so far.

2) Equal authorship roles and rights across all participants.

We're very much not fine here.

3) The script/sketch-authorship has all of the following salient features:

* There is no binding exogenous procedure or systemic architecture that must be hewn to by the participants. Procedure and structure are not binding. They are opt-out or opt-in at the discretion of the authors.

* A desired arc that is forcibly mapped.

* Following from the above, micro-outcomes that are constituents of that arc are known beforehand and inevitably delivered upon because you cannot attain the desired deterministic play of a forcibly mapped, desired arc without that.

We're very, very, very much not fine here on all three bullet points.




So what is the point of calling "players have significant say in the ingredients that propel a still-totally-up-for-grabs scene and play arc" a "writer's room?" Its fundamentally not true.

Someone may not like the systemization of that amount or type of say that players have in various games. But that "player's say" that someone doesn't like doesn't come close to rising to requisite ingredients for the nomenclature of "writer's room." So its just a bad categorization or descriptor. If you were explaining a game to a new person and just said "its basically like if you're in a writer's room," then you're actively harming their understanding of what they're about to undertake. Same goes for design. If you said to some designer "basically design a game that is a writer's room," you're actively asking someone to design a game that doesn't remotely comport to the process or play of these games.

So its not connotation that bothers me. I don't care about connotation.

its that its demonstrably wrong and harms individual/collective knowledge and communication.

My complaints about mystification of process (regardless of the type of game to be run) come from the exact same foundation. Mystification of process and obscurantism of "what we're doing" (no matter the game) is a net harm because the participants don't all know what they're doing, what skills they should be sharpening, and what they should be focusing on (and what they should be excluding) to bring the game to its "fullest life." And it doesn't matter what type of game is being run. Even if its a full-on railroad where the GM is discretionally abridging player input (or putting an extraordinarily low ceiling on player input) in order to deliver desired micro-outcomes and to forcibly map a desired arc onto play...and the players should be focusing on performative color and affectation while understanding the low ceiling of their mechanical input? Even in that situation, every party would be better off in actualizing their respective roles and the social contract would be better preserved if all participants were transparent about what was going on.
Sorry. IMO, If you are going to complain about me complaining about the way others use words, then you shouldn’t complain about the way I use words. You are doing the very thing you find insufferable.
#Irony-of-ironies

But I get it. It’s just not the same when one is on the receiving end of others using words in ways that they find incorrect or misleading. Welcome to the club!
 

Sorry. IMO, If you are going to complain about me complaining about the way others use words, then you shouldn’t complain about the way I use words. You are doing the very thing you find insufferable.
#Irony-of-ironies

But I get it. It’s just not the same when one is on the receiving end of others using words in ways that they find incorrect or misleading. Welcome to the club!

No Frogreaver.

We are not doing the same thing. I am not complaining about connotation. I'm not talking about "the way people use words." This is not about my feelings.

The way people use words and my feelings are irrelevant.

I don't care about culture war over words. My problem, as I've just demonstrated, is about correctness, about applicability, about misleading nomenclature itself; in this case "writer's room." The concept and what "writer's room" falsely conveys to...well...anyone.

These are not the same things.

My concern is for the net harm to anyone's understanding about these games (prospective players, prospective GMs, prospective designers, or general hobbyists). I don't know why you continue to use this incorrect language for games you don't like and games you don't play. But...I'll extend an olive branch. If you can demonstrate to me how # 2 and the 3 x bullet points of # 3 in my post above are salient features of "whatever game", then I'll scratch my chin and go...."huh...I guess Frogreaver was correct about Writer's Room all this time" and we can go ahead and adopt it (totally officially!) into our shared lexicon.
 

Likely my last contribution to this thread, but this is exactly why I'm mostly not interested in these conversations anymore; the invariable, intentional thread drift toward this preoccupation with connotation of this word or that word. This has become ENWorld and its absolutely insufferable. Its not a conversation I care to have. Its the inverse of both interesting and growth of understanding (individual or collective) of what we're all doing at our various tables.
Sure. I totally agree. I'm here to talk about games, not about semantics.

And the fact that you make the assumption that I care about connotation as it relates to writer's room? Why in the world would you do that? If you're preoccupied with connotation that is fine. But leave me out of it. I'm assuming its me being invoked here because I'm the person who always pushes back against "writer's room" and did just that in this thread most recent.

One more time, here is my problem with "writer's room" as a descriptor for any games that I run.

Its not correct.

Let me say that again for those in the back.

Its not correct.

A correct invocation of the concept of "writer's room" (for that concept to actually mean anything) means the following (which is what happens when a group of people with equal authorship get together to write a script/sketch etc):

1) Group of people.

Ok, we're fine so far.

2) Equal authorship roles and rights across all participants.

We're very much not fine here.

3) The script/sketch-authorship has all of the following salient features:

* There is no binding exogenous procedure or systemic architecture that must be hewn to by the participants. Procedure and structure are not binding. They are opt-out or opt-in at the discretion of the authors.

* A desired arc that is forcibly mapped.

* Following from the above, micro-outcomes that are constituents of that arc are known beforehand and inevitably delivered upon because you cannot attain the desired deterministic play of a forcibly mapped, desired arc without that.

We're very, very, very much not fine here on all three bullet points.




So what is the point of calling "players have significant say in the ingredients that propel a still-totally-up-for-grabs scene and play arc" a "writer's room?" Its fundamentally not true.

Someone may not like the systemization of that amount or type of say that players have in various games. But that "player's say" that someone doesn't like doesn't come close to rising to requisite ingredients for the nomenclature of "writer's room." So its just a bad categorization or descriptor. If you were explaining a game to a new person and just said "its basically like if you're in a writer's room," then you're actively harming their understanding of what they're about to undertake. Same goes for design. If you said to some designer "basically design a game that is a writer's room," you're actively asking someone to design a game that doesn't remotely comport to the process or play of these games.

So its not connotation that bothers me. I don't care about connotation.

its that its demonstrably wrong and harms individual/collective knowledge and communication.

But now you are literally dedicating this lengthy diatribe doing the exact thing you complained about. I don't care what you call it. I meant the meta discussions/negotiations about what's going to happen, instead of just playing our character's from their perspective. Feel free to suggest a term you feel more appropriate.

My complaints about mystification of process (regardless of the type of game to be run) come from the exact same foundation. Mystification of process and obscurantism of "what we're doing" (no matter the game) is a net harm because the participants don't all know what they're doing, what skills they should be sharpening, and what they should be focusing on (and what they should be excluding) to bring the game to its "fullest life." And it doesn't matter what type of game is being run. Even if its a full-on railroad where the GM is discretionally abridging player input (or putting an extraordinarily low ceiling on player input) in order to deliver desired micro-outcomes and to forcibly map a desired arc onto play...and the players should be focusing on performative color and affectation while understanding the low ceiling of their mechanical input? Even in that situation, every party would be better off in actualizing their respective roles and the social contract would be better preserved if all participants were transparent about what was going on.

Sure. Agreed. But the thing is, to me it is the forge jargon and the sort of unnecessarily convoluted academic language that you and some others tend to employ that is obscuring things. I don't think it is the intention, but that's the effect.
 


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