RPGing and imagination: a fundamental point

[clearstream]

Usually there indeed is some effect, in most cases rather obvious one. I think most task resolution systems are simulationistic, and are interested in representing causal effects. So good 'how' tends to produce an effect, as that is what causally makes sense.

As a player, why do you choose to perform a given task? As GM, how do you decide whether the task resolves the situation, such as whether information gathered using Gather Information actually leads to finding the demonic papers?

We honoured the character's capability to open safes.

That's true, but why didn't we honour their intent to find the demonic papers? And what would honour that intent? As GM, what performances are we going to require for players to find the demonic papers? How do we decide that?

And yeah, in a myth dense environment sometimes we get 'duds' with task resolution. This is because in such a game task resolution is just a tool that simulates the capability of the character, and is just a part of resolving the conflict or a scene. Most of the resolution is about the players interacting with the environment, using it to their advantage. I think you kinda aimed for something similar with your 'drama resolution' but I posit it often is is not about drama but about creative problem solving.

So what resolves a scene? How do we decide when the scene is ended? I had a relevant case come up recently during play of Avatar.

Our MC was new to game mastering, and unsurprisingly enough hit some hiccoughs in play. We framed a scene where going in our goals were "find the gang lieutenant's girlfriend" and "join the circus". We played out stuff that brought resolution to where we ought to have been rolling for "find the girlfriend" (our goal). It would have been an option to tell us where she was (say yes), but this was played out as Pleading with a friendly gang member. Our novice GM defaulted to "learn about a warehouse where the girlfriend might be held". Notionally, as task resolution, this could indeed be an effect of pleading: GM decides the gang member has some idea but isn't absolutely certain. Maybe there are a few possible locations she could be held? But as conflict resolution our hit should have been - success on our goal.​

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When we got to that warehouse, we dealt with a few thugs (mostly by making them question their life choices) and searched it. Of course, our GM had reserved deciding whether or not the girlfriend was really there. In consequence, they were not sure how they should end the scene? Was it okay to say we found her in that warehouse? Or were additional performances needed? The scene was left hanging. In the end, because it was our last session before the seasonal break, they went with - she was there, held in a downstairs cell. There was of course more going on than what I've explained here, but hopefully I've captured the pertinent elements.​

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So what did GM have in mind? We talked it over after play and it was clear that they were looking for performances leading to a dramatically appropriate denouement. Our performances weren't being considered solely for their effect, but those effects in light of a creative purpose. How well they counted towards a dramatically appropriate denouement.​

Manbearcat works through how this can apply to other creative purposes. If it's creative problem solving, then your rubric as GM is whether this performance should count towards solving the problem. If you decide it doesn't, then you can't say that resolving the task mattered. If you decide it does, then resolution gatekeeps counting it toward solving the problem.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

As a player, why do you choose to perform a given task?

It indeed is often about achieving some goal. But in this sort of gameplay it is just the roll which resolves whether the goal was achieved, as actually interacting with the environment greatly affects the outcome. You can't just push the skill button, you need to actually aim the skill at the correct thing.

As GM, how do you decide whether the task resolves the situation, such as whether information gathered using Gather Information actually leads to finding the demonic papers?

Referencing the myth is a significant factor.

That's true, but why didn't we honour their intent to find the demonic papers? And what would honour that intent? As GM, what performances are we going to require for players to find the demonic papers? How do we decide that?

Because the papers were not there. In this sort of gameplay location of an important item is part of predetermined myth, and no matter how well you search it in the wrong place, you're not gonna find it! Investigating and interacting with the environment plays a big part in this sort of play; it is not just about the rolls.

So what resolves a scene? How do we decide when the scene is ended? I had a relevant case come up recently during play of Avatar.

Our MC was new to game mastering, and unsurprisingly enough hit some hiccoughs in play. We framed a scene where going in our goals were "find the gang lieutenant's girlfriend" and "join the circus". We played out stuff that brought resolution to where we ought to have been rolling for "find the girlfriend" (our goal). It would have been an option to tell us where she was (say yes), but this was played out as Pleading with a friendly gang member. Our novice GM defaulted to "learn about a warehouse where the girlfriend might be held". Notionally, as task resolution, this could indeed be an effect of pleading: GM decides the gang member has some idea but isn't absolutely certain. Maybe there are a few possible locations she could be held? But as conflict resolution our hit should have been - success on our goal.​

​

When we got to that warehouse, we dealt with a few thugs (mostly by making them question their life choices) and searched it. Of course, our GM had reserved deciding whether or not the girlfriend was really there. In consequence, they were not sure how they should end the scene? Was it okay to say we found her in that warehouse? Or were additional performances needed? The scene was left hanging. In the end, because it was our last session before the seasonal break, they went with - she was there, held in a downstairs cell. There was of course more going on than what I've explained here, but hopefully I've captured the pertinent elements.​

​

So what did GM have in mind? We talked it over after play and it was clear that they were looking for performances leading to a dramatically appropriate denouement. Our performances weren't being considered solely for their effect, but those effects in light of a creative purpose. How well they counted towards a dramatically appropriate denouement.​

Manbearcat works through how this can apply to other creative purposes. If it's creative problem solving, then your rubric as GM is whether this performance should count towards solving the problem.

In the sort of gameplay I'm talking about here, the location of the lieutenant's girlfriend and who knows of that location are predetermined facts. The scene is resolved when the characters take actions and successfully complete tasks directed at the correct fictional elements to obtain this information and find the girl, or alternatively when they decide to give up.

 

[clearstream]

It indeed is often about achieving some goal. But in this sort of gameplay it is just the roll which resolves whether the goal was achieved, as actually interacting with the environment greatly affects the outcome. You can't just push the skill button, you need to actually aim the skill at the correct thing.

For sure. I'm not disagreeing with that. In fact, I'm saying that's what's producing coherent GMing.

Referencing the myth is a significant factor.

I'd like to note this and mark it to come back to, should it prove important.

Because the papers were not there. In this sort of gameplay location of an important item is part of predetermined myth, and no matter how well you search it in the wrong place, you're not gonna find it! Investigating and interacting with the environment plays a big part in this sort of play; it is not just about the rolls.

So what would give the players the information about where the demonic papers are for sure 100% located? What performances are you going to require?

In the sort of gameplay I'm talking about here, the location of the lieutenant's girlfriend and who knows of that location are predetermined facts. The scene is resolved when the characters take actions and successfully complete tasks directed at the correct fictional elements to obtain this information and find the girl, or alternatively when they decide to give up.

That's it. The bolded part. That's what I'm saying.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

That's it. The bolded part. That's what I'm saying.

Um, okay... Are we still disagreeing about something then?

 

[clearstream]

Um, okay... Are we still disagreeing about something then?

Maybe not! So here again is conflict resolution:

it's conflict resolution iff the process of resolution decides what happens next in regard to player goals​

Player goals are any goals players choose to pursue, regardless of how they're expressed or established. And here again is rehabilitated task resolution:

it's task resolution if the process of resolution decides how a performance counts toward a creative purpose​

Creative purpose could be dramatic vision, could be strategic challenge, could be elevated appreciation. You put it that

The scene is resolved when the characters take actions and successfully complete tasks directed at the correct fictional elements

I've doubly emphasised correct to draw attention to its nature as a measurement against criteria. What counts? What is legitimate? What is directed in just the right way? I've described all that as "counts toward a creative purpose."

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Maybe not! So here again is conflict resolution:

it's conflict resolution iff the process of resolution decides what happens next in regard to player goals​

Player goals are any goals players choose to pursue, regardless of how they're expressed or established. And here again is rehabilitated task resolution:

it's task resolution if the process of resolution decides how a performance counts toward a creative purpose​

Creative purpose could be dramatic vision, could be strategic challenge, could be elevated appreciation. You put it that

I've doubly emphasised correct to draw attention to its nature as a measurement against criteria. What counts? What is legitimate? What is directed in just the right way? I've described all that as "counts toward a creative purpose."

I suppose one could characterise it that way. But "creative purpose" is awfully broad, and lumps all sorts of different things together. For example I think to me it is pretty damn drastic difference whether the papers are found in the safe because the pre-established myth says they're there or because the GM thinks it would be dramatically appropriate at this point of the narrative that they're found.

 

[FrogReaver]

It indeed is often about achieving some goal. But in this sort of gameplay it is just the roll which resolves whether the goal was achieved, as actually interacting with the environment greatly affects the outcome. You can't just push the skill button, you need to actually aim the skill at the correct thing.


Referencing the myth is a significant factor.


Because the papers were not there. In this sort of gameplay location of an important item is part of predetermined myth, and no matter how well you search it in the wrong place, you're not gonna find it! Investigating and interacting with the environment plays a big part in this sort of play; it is not just about the rolls.



In the sort of gameplay I'm talking about here, the location of the lieutenant's girlfriend and who knows of that location are predetermined facts. The scene is resolved when the characters take actions and successfully complete tasks directed at the correct fictional elements to obtain this information and find the girl, or alternatively when they decide to give up.

One thing you’ll also notice is that sometimes the DM will roll to see if the papers are here. That is, he hadn’t created a myth around X and so he is using a mechanic to answer that question in the moment. This is actually fairly common to D&D play in my experience.

I think there’s some interesting parallels there, but maybe a bit off topic at this juncture.

 

[FrogReaver]

No we don't. I am tired of with this obfuscating of what is actually happening, twisting of meaning of words and piling a ton of questionably related citations.

What you describe there is saying "no." It is "not really," but that is still form of saying no. Now the GM has good reasons for doing this and these may be different reasons than in some other game. But what is really happening here is the GM blocking the players original suggestion, and that by normal understanding of English language is obviously saying "no."

It might be worthwhile to discuss these different ways and reasons for blocking the player's wish, but unless we can agree on the plain reality of it actually happening this is going nowhere.

it’s also worth reiterating that Baker himself called that saying no.

 

[FrogReaver]

Maybe not! So here again is conflict resolution:

it's conflict resolution iff the process of resolution decides what happens next in regard to player goals​

Player goals are any goals players choose to pursue, regardless of how they're expressed or established. And here again is rehabilitated task resolution:

it's task resolution if the process of resolution decides how a performance counts toward a creative purpose​

Creative purpose could be dramatic vision, could be strategic challenge, could be elevated appreciation. You put it that

I've doubly emphasised correct to draw attention to its nature as a measurement against criteria. What counts? What is legitimate? What is directed in just the right way? I've described all that as "counts toward a creative purpose."

I think it may be worth exploring if there are more than 2 types of resolution. Lumping all non-conflict resolution into one basket might make it difficult to describe that basket of resolution types coherently.

 

[clearstream]

I think it may be worth exploring if there are more than 2 types of resolution. Lumping all non-conflict resolution into one basket might make it difficult to describe that basket of resolution types coherently.

I think so, too. But folk seem wedded to "task resolution" even though no one resolves tasks for their own sake. However, there is worth in giving a high level description that points to the sorts of concerns one should have and the virtues and costs of choices. As someone once said

Conflict resolution procedures and resolution techniques/features work against so much of the salient features of task resolution that the players above depend upon (and their System 2 and System 1 thinking is anchored to).

It's equally true that so-called task resolution works against conflict resolution (except where as I said it gatekeeps conflict resolution, in which case it's just a methodical step.)