RPGNow/Bastion ESD Help "Hour of the Knife" Map needed

[Tsyr]

Fair enough--although the difference in stating my personal opinion, and in handling business (especially when it's a business that someone else owns, rather than just my own design work) is a MAJOR one. I may be abrasive at times in personal matters, but never when a customer service issue is at hand.

I need you to have a word with the folks at the local Sam Goody. They are downright mean, on a personal level.

 

[berdoingg]

Thanks for the various support and advice. It sounds like this kind of practise is no more legal in the States than in the UK. Unfortunately I used a debit card not a credit card, so getting the payment stopped isn't an answer. It's not something I'd choose to do anyway. I'm confident we can get this worked out between our good selves

I've contacted Jim from Bastion but have not heard back yet.

 

[the Jester]

Well, I'm gratified to see a quick response from the company involved, unlike what happened with another online retailer a few months back (anyone else remember the thread to which I'm referring...?)

Even given that you can't control everything, GMSkarka, I appreciate the followup you're demonstrating, and give ya two thumbs up for it!

 

[The Sigil]

GMSkarka:
That seams pretty weak. RPGNow site clearly states that the product provides a map. That is in effect a contract between RPGNow and the customer for you to provide that content. They are sending you the money, therefor you are responsible to provide that content, regardless of what your policy might be. By simply selling the product you take on a measure of liablity and responsability for it. In the U.S. legal system you can't "sign" away your rights nor can you waive the rights of your customer by having a disclaimer. The only thing you can really do is under this specific circumstance give the customer either the map or his money back and change the wording of the product description. Simply, you don't have a leg to stand on, on this one.

IANAL, but I'm not sure this is the case, for reasons I will discuss below. Let me throw something in here on RPGNow's behalf...

That there is a mistake isn't RPGNow's fault - a lot of folks in here seem to think RPGNow somehow has "control" of what's in a PDF and that's simply not the case. Much of the anger here, while justified, is misdirected. Here's how the process works:

1.) RPGNow is provided with a PDF by a publisher. The publisher is the one who has access to and control of what he puts in the "product description" area - not RPGNow. The publisher is the one who has access to and control of what is in the product itself.

2.) In this case, the description did not match the product sold. This is not RPGNow's fault, as it is not their business to audit every description to make sure it matches the product (not to mention that the publisher can change the description at a moment's notice). RPGNow is in the position to make "reactive" changes once someone complains (and they have in the past, "taking down" extremely poor/ripoff/unlicensed products within 24 hours of complaint, BTW) but that's all.

3.) In this case, things are slightly different since WotC is the publisher and they have (unfortunately) abandoned support of their ESD program. This one is on WotC, not RPGNow.

Obviously, an electronic product is slightly different from a physical one in that the "no returns policy" makes sense (as has been noted before). But RPGNow.com is not quite the same as your local game shop. In a sense, RPGNow.com is more like eBay/PayPal. When you win an auction on eBay, you may pay for your item using PayPal - the money goes first to PayPal, and THEN to the seller. Similarly, when you buy an item from RPGNow.com, the money goes first to RPGNow.com, and THEN to the publisher. If you do not receive the item you bid on from eBay in the stated condition, you complain to/about the SELLER, and possibly TO eBay (but not ABOUT eBay) if that doesn't resolve the problem. Similarly, if you receive something from RPGNow.com that is below what you expect, you ought to first complain to the publisher - THEN complain to RPGNow.com if you are not satisfied.

The analogy is not perfect, and there are some differences in the details, but in essence, that's the way it works. When someone buys a copy of the Enchiridion of Mystic Music, for instance, I consider them to have bought it from ME using RPGNow.com (see the difference).

In this case, I fear you're probably hosed - because WotC (not RPGNow.com) has decided to discontinue support for ESDs and is completely uninterested in fixing any problems extant in current ESDs. That's a WotC issue, not an RPGNow.com issue. You can complain to RPGNow.com, but there's not a lot they can do about it - they don't have enough leverage to move WotC. About the best you can expect from RPGNow.com is for them to (a) change the description or (b) pull the product from their site.

If you want to be upset, that's certainly your perogative. Just make sure you're directing your anger at the person who sent you the message that ESD's aren't important enough to get right (that would be WotC) and not the messenger (RPGNow.com).

Just take a second to cool off, back up, and look at how things work, and you'll find that your anger, while justified, is misplaced. It's much like getting upset with Visa or Mastercard when you use plastic to pay for a shoddy product. Get upset at the shoddy product maker instead.

--The Sigil

 

[Arravis]

I have to disagree. If a company advertises a product they offer as having certain features, and it doesn't, that company is responsible.

When I go to my local car dealer and buy a car that has air bags listed on the sticker, and I later find out that it doesn't have air bags, the dealer is responsible. They won't tell me "go see whomever built the car about it". Legally the dealer is responsible for that. Now if the air bag was there and malfunctioned, that is the responsibility of the manufacturer.

It takes only a minimal amount of effort for RPGNow to be a responsible business and see to it that their products match the description they themselves have chosen to put on their site (yes, I'm aware that RPGNow more then likely simply copy/pasted what was given to them, but it makes them no less responsible for it).

Anyway, I'm not angry at RPGNow, I'm simply disappointed and pointing out that I believe they are conducting themselves incorrectly on this issue if they choose not to change their product description and give a refund or a map to the customer that purchased the product.

 

[DanMcS]

Thanks for the various support and advice. It sounds like this kind of practise is no more legal in the States than in the UK. Unfortunately I used a debit card not a credit card, so getting the payment stopped isn't an answer. It's not something I'd choose to do anyway. I'm confident we can get this worked out between our good selves

That's why I never use a debit card online, I want to be able to dispute charges if it doesn't work out.

RPGnow is the vendor, ignore their protestations to the contrary. They're filling the same function as a bookstore- if a book you get falls out of its binding within the first week, you return it to B&N, not Random House or whoever. They're also apparently making false claims to try to sell you something, and you can't even browse it first to make sure it's legit.

You sound optimistic, but they're stonewalling you and trying to pass the buck. Unfortunately, it was about $5.00, and over amounts that small there's not much that's worth doing, especially from the other side of the atlantic. I would go to as many RPG sites as possible, and complain about how you got hosed by RPGnow by false advertising to high heaven. Pretty much what you're doing now, in fact, but if they're going to try to ignore you until you go away, get louder about it. About the only thing you can do to them is hurt their reputation.

By the way, Jim Butler at Bastion probably can't do much for you, though I bet he'd like to. They were doing the ESD scanning as contractors for WotC, so he's not really a party to the transaction. You're probably stuck hassling Wizards customer service.

 

[Mark]

Edit your first post and change the Title to -

RPGNow/Bastion ESD Help "Hour of the Knife" Map needed

- and I'll bet you get some help from some quarter before too long...

The best thing to do would be to change the thread's title as Mark suggested or create another thread. I think you should be able to find someone to help you out. I hope at least.

That's good advice...

Thanks for the various support and advice. It sounds like this kind of practise is no more legal in the States than in the UK. Unfortunately I used a debit card not a credit card, so getting the payment stopped isn't an answer. It's not something I'd choose to do anyway. I'm confident we can get this worked out between our good selves

I've contacted Jim from Bastion but have not heard back yet.

If you want to increase your chances of being satisfied, and I am assuming the goal is to get the map that they have not included, then please follow this advice.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Wulf, when was this?

June 3, 2003; again on June 17, 2003; both from my work email (which I will not post here). I sent at least one more from my home email address.

I got my order ok, and have ordered from RPGnow since then.

EDIT: Which is NOT to say that the issue was ever resolved. It wasn't.

Still, it's beyond annoying not to at least get a reply to a polite inquiry.


Wulf

 

[Dimwhit]

IANAL, but I'm not sure this is the case, for reasons I will discuss below. Let me throw something in here on RPGNow's behalf...

That there is a mistake isn't RPGNow's fault - a lot of folks in here seem to think RPGNow somehow has "control" of what's in a PDF and that's simply not the case. Much of the anger here, while justified, is misdirected. Here's how the process works:

1.) RPGNow is provided with a PDF by a publisher. The publisher is the one who has access to and control of what he puts in the "product description" area - not RPGNow. The publisher is the one who has access to and control of what is in the product itself.

2.) In this case, the description did not match the product sold. This is not RPGNow's fault, as it is not their business to audit every description to make sure it matches the product (not to mention that the publisher can change the description at a moment's notice). RPGNow is in the position to make "reactive" changes once someone complains (and they have in the past, "taking down" extremely poor/ripoff/unlicensed products within 24 hours of complaint, BTW) but that's all.

3.) In this case, things are slightly different since WotC is the publisher and they have (unfortunately) abandoned support of their ESD program. This one is on WotC, not RPGNow.

Obviously, an electronic product is slightly different from a physical one in that the "no returns policy" makes sense (as has been noted before). But RPGNow.com is not quite the same as your local game shop. In a sense, RPGNow.com is more like eBay/PayPal. When you win an auction on eBay, you may pay for your item using PayPal - the money goes first to PayPal, and THEN to the seller. Similarly, when you buy an item from RPGNow.com, the money goes first to RPGNow.com, and THEN to the publisher. If you do not receive the item you bid on from eBay in the stated condition, you complain to/about the SELLER, and possibly TO eBay (but not ABOUT eBay) if that doesn't resolve the problem. Similarly, if you receive something from RPGNow.com that is below what you expect, you ought to first complain to the publisher - THEN complain to RPGNow.com if you are not satisfied.

The analogy is not perfect, and there are some differences in the details, but in essence, that's the way it works. When someone buys a copy of the Enchiridion of Mystic Music, for instance, I consider them to have bought it from ME using RPGNow.com (see the difference).

In this case, I fear you're probably hosed - because WotC (not RPGNow.com) has decided to discontinue support for ESDs and is completely uninterested in fixing any problems extant in current ESDs. That's a WotC issue, not an RPGNow.com issue. You can complain to RPGNow.com, but there's not a lot they can do about it - they don't have enough leverage to move WotC. About the best you can expect from RPGNow.com is for them to (a) change the description or (b) pull the product from their site.

If you want to be upset, that's certainly your perogative. Just make sure you're directing your anger at the person who sent you the message that ESD's aren't important enough to get right (that would be WotC) and not the messenger (RPGNow.com).

Just take a second to cool off, back up, and look at how things work, and you'll find that your anger, while justified, is misplaced. It's much like getting upset with Visa or Mastercard when you use plastic to pay for a shoddy product. Get upset at the shoddy product maker instead.

I'm gonna disagree with you on a couple points, The Sigil. The analogy at the end isn't the same. Mastercard/Visa isn't listing the product, they're just providing the means to purchase it.

RPGNow is listing the product and offering it for sale. Should they be responsible for the content? No, not necessarily. But if the product sold by RPGNow isn't what is listed, they have to take some responsibility.

They should:

1. Issue either a refund or a credit
2. Immediately either remove the product from the website or change the listing to state the map is not in there.

They may not be responsible for the listing, but it's up their on their watch. They can't go on selling something falsely advertised. Like you said:

RPGNow is in the position to make "reactive" changes once someone complains (and they have in the past, "taking down" extremely poor/ripoff/unlicensed products within 24 hours of complaint, BTW) but that's all.

That's exactly what they should be doing. Taking a 'reactive' role and doing the two steps I mentioned above. How they can justify not doing so is beyond me.

 

[GMSkarka]

Well, I'm gratified to see a quick response from the company involved, unlike what happened with another online retailer a few months back (anyone else remember the thread to which I'm referring...?)

Even given that you can't control everything, GMSkarka, I appreciate the followup you're demonstrating, and give ya two thumbs up for it!

Thanks. Customer service is an important issue for RPG Now.


Thank you for your compliment, and thanks to other posters (like The Sigil) who understand the situation and made an effort to educate others. Contrary to what some posters would have you believe, we're not being "irresponsible", or "stonewalling" or anything of the sort.

GMS