RPGs, new games and originality

[aramis erak]

Same with Traveller, roll 2d6+SKILL, 8+ is (usually, at least in early Traveller) a success, period, end of report. Technically there's a parry rule, but the use of primitive weapons is minimal, so it can practically be ignored. Specific situations are often called out in the rules where the 'DC' varies from 8, or there are specific modifiers, and here and there some things like your computer might provide an extra mod. Its an incredibly simple, totally unified, system published in 1977.

Except that Classic was NOT 8+ for everything!!!
Looking at 77 PDF, Bk1. The only earlier is in GDW's playtests.
Bribery 8+, skill adds level
Forgery 5-, DM -2 per level. Rolled at inspection time.
Administration 7+, +2 per level

And that's just page 14.

Medical's most important use, healing PCs, isn't even rolled!
And so on.

You might want to check what's in it vs how y'all played it before you try to use it as evidence of existing design. How you remember it is not uncommon as to how it was played, but it's very much NOT how Marc claims he ran it (see his t4 designers notes - Marc claims, and there's evidence for, it having been between 1 and 5 dice ≤ Att + Skill).

Now, combat to-hit? Yes, that's 8+ on 2d6 + Skill ± AttMod. Att Mod can range from -4 to +2.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I'm not sure why anyone would find it UNUSUAL, I mean, BRP (CoC, DQ, etc.) has essentially one mechanic for everything, you roll d% and try to hit a target number. Certain multiples of the target number may produce better/worse results, and combat has some additional rules to handle active defense (parry or dodge) as well as action economy, but its still ESSENTIALLY all the same thing. And games like CoC, which doesn't really focus on combat and elides most of the fancier DQ combat rules, pretty much IS 'single unified mechanic'.

Same with Traveller, roll 2d6+SKILL, 8+ is (usually, at least in early Traveller) a success, period, end of report. Technically there's a parry rule, but the use of primitive weapons is minimal, so it can practically be ignored. Specific situations are often called out in the rules where the 'DC' varies from 8, or there are specific modifiers, and here and there some things like your computer might provide an extra mod. Its an incredibly simple, totally unified, system published in 1977.

And the trend for the past 10-15 years in newer games has been towards this sort of stripped-down single mechanics systems. Outside of D&D the idea of a hodge-podge of dice, tables, different sorts of success criteria, etc. is pretty dead actually.

Well, I'm rather fond of subsystems, so for me it's a good thing that D&D-derived systems are still going strong.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I think they could possibly work on creating different settings, something other than Typical D&D With The Serial Numbers Filed Off. Different monsters, for one--too many of them rely on standard D&D monsters, possibly with different names for the ones not released to the OGL. While I don't own DCC, what I've read about wizard corruption is a good example of what I mean, because it automatically paints a different world than a typical D&D world, and a setting could really lean into something like that. They could even do different races. Even though I personally hate race-as-class, which many/most OSR games seem to use, a game could do something other than elf, dwarf, halfling, and maybe (half)orc. A setting with gnomes (crafting/illusion), minotaurs (martial/maze-walking abilities), mushroom-folk (druidy casters), and, I dunno, sugar glider-folk (gliding/climbing/sneakiness) is going to at least feel very different than every other OSR game out there, even if the mechanics are 90% similar.

Yeah, but at some level its skilled play in a totally defined dungeon-esque environment. I agree, you can alter the feel of the monsters, use slightly different types of environments (space ship, ruins, etc.) but at some point its still basically a D&D-like combat system, some form of D&D-esque logistics, similar sorts of archetype-as-class, level-based advancement, etc. The nut of each game is really its 'process of play' and that's definitional to OSR, pretty much. So you can get SOME variations, but a lot of the 'feel' of a game comes from the stuff that defines it as OSR, so you can only move so much away from that.

I mean, you CAN do a bunch. Read 1e Gamma World, its basically a variant of D&D, mechanically, but it definitely does feel quite different. OTOH it might not quite meet everyone's criteria for being an OSR game (though honestly, I think it is close in a lot of ways).

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Except that Classic was NOT 8+ for everything!!!
Looking at 77 PDF, Bk1. The only earlier is in GDW's playtests.
Bribery 8+, skill adds level
Forgery 5-, DM -2 per level. Rolled at inspection time.
Administration 7+, +2 per level

And that's just page 14.

Medical's most important use, healing PCs, isn't even rolled!
And so on.

You might want to check what's in it vs how y'all played it before you try to use it as evidence of existing design. How you remember it is not uncommon as to how it was played, but it's very much NOT how Marc claims he ran it (see his t4 designers notes - Marc claims, and there's evidence for, it having been between 1 and 5 dice ≤ Att + Skill).

Now, combat to-hit? Yes, that's 8+ on 2d6 + Skill ± AttMod. Att Mod can range from -4 to +2.

The basic rule is 8+. Yes, specific common applications of each skill are documented, and a pretty fair number of them give slightly different numbers for specific things. Its up to the GM as to precisely what the target number is, technically. The thing is, if you vary that much beyond the range 6-10 things don't work, so 99.9% of all checks need to hit an 8 or maybe a 7 in actual practice. And again, yes there are situational modifiers possible, in attacks, etc. Its still one simple unified system.

But we don't need to stick with Traveller! Bunnies & Burrows came out 2 years before Traveller and it also uses a (the first) skill system as a universal mechanic. The idea is literally old as the hills.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Yeah, but at some level its skilled play in a totally defined dungeon-esque environment. I agree, you can alter the feel of the monsters, use slightly different types of environments (space ship, ruins, etc.) but at some point its still basically a D&D-like combat system, some form of D&D-esque logistics, similar sorts of archetype-as-class, level-based advancement, etc. The nut of each game is really its 'process of play' and that's definitional to OSR, pretty much. So you can get SOME variations, but a lot of the 'feel' of a game comes from the stuff that defines it as OSR, so you can only move so much away from that.

I mean, you CAN do a bunch. Read 1e Gamma World, its basically a variant of D&D, mechanically, but it definitely does feel quite different. OTOH it might not quite meet everyone's criteria for being an OSR game (though honestly, I think it is close in a lot of ways).

Original Gamma World is a lot of fun, and doesn't really feel like D&D, despite sharing a good deal of DNA. Genre makes a big difference there, I think.

 

[Faolyn]

I mean, you CAN do a bunch. Read 1e Gamma World, its basically a variant of D&D, mechanically, but it definitely does feel quite different. OTOH it might not quite meet everyone's criteria for being an OSR game (though honestly, I think it is close in a lot of ways).

Well, yeah, that was my point. If there's only so much you can change mechanically and stay OSR, then change the cosmetics. Make it so the game looks like more than just another clone.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Original Gamma World is a lot of fun, and doesn't really feel like D&D, despite sharing a good deal of DNA. Genre makes a big difference there, I think.

Yeah, it feels pretty different, but I would note that one big reason is that advancement works differently. You basically start out in GW as almost equivalent to a 10th level D&D PC, and leveling up means almost nothing. Instead its all about gear acquisition. A PSH with a vibro-blade and sheath armor is cannon fodder, but the same PSH in Powered Assault Armor with a Laser Rifle and a bunch of batteries is a god.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Yeah, it feels pretty different, but I would note that one big reason is that advancement works differently. You basically start out in GW as almost equivalent to a 10th level D&D PC, and leveling up means almost nothing. Instead its all about gear acquisition. A PSH with a vibro-blade and sheath armor is cannon fodder, but the same PSH in Powered Assault Armor with a Laser Rifle and a bunch of batteries is a god.

Oh yes. One of the problems with translating modern versions of D&D to sci-fi and similar settings is they underestimate the importance of gear to the genre. Cool techno-bling is vital I think to the sci-fi experience.

 

[Yora]

That's why I ultimately decided not to give Scum and Villainy a try for an actual campaign. Even in Space Opera, there's something important loss when you can't loot enemy equipment from defeated enemies or sneaking into armories.

 

[MichaelSomething]

"If you feel safe in the area you're working in, you're not working in the right area."