Rule of 3 3/21

[renau1g]

This seems to be one of those cases where they may be using the stats from the character builder well.

Well in the last 6 months sure, but over the past couple of years they haven't had this info...Changelings and Artificers since July 2009. Gnolls, September 2008.

I'm not saying HoS is the place for it, just that some things have always (and I'm sure will always) be unsupported, not just non-Essentials. It happens. As you said, some things are just less popular.

 

[Wednesday Boy]

The thing that I dislike about the backwards compatibility of some of the new powers is that while they can be taken by old classes/builds, the old classes/builds miss out on a special dynamic of the power because it only applies to new classes/builds.

A specific example is that some summoning powers in Heroes of Shadow let the creature exist past the end of the encounter. Brilliant! I love it! But while a Summoner Wizard could take those powers, they'll miss out on the existing past the end of the encounter tag because that only appies if you're a Necromancer (or one other new class/build--I forget which).

So while there is some backwards compatability because an old class/build can take the power, the innovations within the power are lost because of class features that are only tied to the new classes. It would be nicer to have those sort of tags for a larger scope of powers and classes/builds to really increase the backwards compatability.

 

[MrMyth]

Not:
Back-ward compatibility is not the same as new support.

If the powers and feats in Arcane Power counted as new support for the PHB classes - despite also having support for the Swordmage - than powers and feats in HoS for the Wizard and Cleric is just as legitimate as new support.

Seriously, based on your logic here, I do not believe it is possible for them to put out a book that you consider to be 'supporting' the older content.

You know, if the book comes out, and it turns out that there are 3 pages of content that are useful for PHB classes... then sure, you'll have a point. But nothing we've seen thus far indicates this, and it looks like the book will provide plenty of content for both Essentials and non-Essentials characters.

 

[the Jester]

I find the whole hue and cry about Essentials support to be both amusing and baffling.

Essentials is just like Martial Power or Arcane Power- it introduces new options, including many that existing pcs can take. Heroes of Shadow looks to be the same. Of course it won't have infinite support for the stuff that already has tons of options- it only has so many pages and has to be thematic and focused. But everytime I hear a bunch of people talk about how something doesn't support "Classic" 4e, I roll my eyes.

Every power not bound to a school or domain will be available to classic pcs, and I wouldn't be surprised to see a Dragon article introduce ways to get those ones too.

But whatever, I guess the sky will never stop falling.

 

[The Little Raven]

The thing that I dislike about the backwards compatibility of some of the new powers is that while they can be taken by old classes/builds, the old classes/builds miss out on a special dynamic of the power because it only applies to new classes/builds.

Which is no different than a power having a rider effect because you're Fey Pact and not being able to benefit from it since you're Infernal Pact.

But while a Summoner Wizard could take those powers, they'll miss out on the existing past the end of the encounter tag because that only appies if you're a Necromancer (or one other new class/build--I forget which).

Just like the Necromancer would miss out on any powers that give an extra bonus for having the Implement Mastery (Staff) class feature. The same would apply to a PHB Wizard that uses the Orb for Implement Mastery.


The vast majority of all the powers released in the Essentials line are usable by their PHB-style parent class, and there is just as many incidents of not gaining all the bonuses from a power due to class features with E-classes versus PHB-classes. All this gnashing of teeth is much ado about nothing.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I find the whole hue and cry about Essentials support to be both amusing and baffling.

Essentials is just like Martial Power or Arcane Power- it introduces new options, including many that existing pcs can take. Heroes of Shadow looks to be the same. Of course it won't have infinite support for the stuff that already has tons of options- it only has so many pages and has to be thematic and focused. But everytime I hear a bunch of people talk about how something doesn't support "Classic" 4e, I roll my eyes.

Every power not bound to a school or domain will be available to classic pcs, and I wouldn't be surprised to see a Dragon article introduce ways to get those ones too.

But whatever, I guess the sky will never stop falling.

Wrong i guess... i thought you can chose domain feats as a generalist and there is no such thing as a restricted school...

 

[gyor]

I like answer one and how they still try to imply that essentials and the old format are both supported equally. But the truest sentence:


BBM

So, the essential-like classes get full support, but most of the powers are back-ward compatible?
If this is the case just say so!

Not:
Back-ward compatibility is not the same as new support.


I really like the Essentials format and classes. BTW.

i believe they were refering to the binder as the AEDU as it is AEDU.

 

[occam]

I find the whole hue and cry about Essentials support to be both amusing and baffling.

Essentials is just like Martial Power or Arcane Power- it introduces new options, including many that existing pcs can take. Heroes of Shadow looks to be the same. Of course it won't have infinite support for the stuff that already has tons of options- it only has so many pages and has to be thematic and focused. But everytime I hear a bunch of people talk about how something doesn't support "Classic" 4e, I roll my eyes.

You know what I'm mad about? How Wizards has completely abandoned Essentials, only months after releasing the line! Heroes of Shadow leaves knights, slayers, thieves, sentinels, hunters, and scouts out in the cold! Not only have they dropped support for pre-Essentials D&D, they've dropped support for Essentials, too! What are they even supporting with this product?

You know what else? I'm still steamed that PHB3 provided almost nothing for PHB1 classes.

 

[Walking Dad]

You know what I'm mad about? How Wizards has completely abandoned Essentials, only months after releasing the line! Heroes of Shadow leaves knights, slayers, thieves, sentinels, hunters, and scouts out in the cold! Not only have they dropped support for pre-Essentials D&D, they've dropped support for Essentials, too! What are they even supporting with this product?

You know what else? I'm still steamed that PHB3 provided almost nothing for PHB1 classes.

Your sarcasm fails.
No, I haven't wondered if there weren't new support for a limited book line.
And yes, you can use the PH3 with just the rules compendium and never open the PH1.
But to use everything in HoS, you need the other 'Heroes of' books, not any PH. Essentials was designed to be able to be used independent from 'core' 4e. And HoS is, too.

Yes, you can use some of the stuff for the older core, but the focus is now on the new and shiny Essentials (like) stuff.

And I say it again: I like it this way!

(But I still understand the disappointment of Str-Clerics, Cha-Paladins, Con-Warlock lovers if they got no new power support (excluding utility powers) for theit build despite new powers for their classes.

And I doubt their will be new support for Seekers and Runepriests in the near future, or attack powers for martial classes.)

 

[MrMyth]

Your sarcasm fails.
No, I haven't wondered if there weren't new support for a limited book line.
And yes, you can use the PH3 with just the rules compendium and never open the PH1.
But to use everything in HoS, you need the other 'Heroes of' books, not any PH. Essentials was designed to be able to be used independent from 'core' 4e. And HoS is, too.

And... to use Psionic Power, you need PHB3, not any other PHB. And to use Arcane Power fully, you need the PHB, PHB2, and FRPG.

My objection here isn't whether you approve or not of this theoretical shift, it is that this theoretical change has not actually occured. This is the same sort of support we've seen since the beginning - one book can support multiple products. There is nothing to indicate this is any different than the previous splatbooks that operated in the same exact way.