Rule of 3 3/21

[Walking Dad]

... and I think we've pretty clearly shown that the only differences are superficial at best - to the formatting and presentation, and nothing more.
...

Ok, last try

1) All splat books before Essentials required the PH1, at least for the rules. Essentials gave us the Rules Compendium.
2) All splat books (no, I don't count the setting books) provided alternate builds and new powers for PH (1-3) classes (and, yes, the swordmage).
HoS is the first non-essentials book that can be used completely without any PH.
3) After essentials, I saw no class or build still using the old advancement table. The only exception so far is the mage.
We are back to the point we have to compare classes with and without daily powers.
4) And it looks like we got no more classes with two primary abilities.

These are the things I think changed and that are more than superficial.

 

[Tony Vargas]

The power point-using psionic classes are not using the same progression as the previous classes. They are far more different from the previous class designs than the majority of the Essentials class design (most of which still use the A/E/D breakdown). To claim otherwise is to ignore objective fact.

Really, the psionic classes are just a slight tweak. They get at-will, encounter, and daily attacks like everyone else, their encounter attacks are just mechanically novel, in the form of power points that boost their at-wills. It's pointlessly baroque, but it retains the same basic structure and balance as the AEDU classes.

The 5 Essentials martial sub-classes - that's about half the classes in HotFL and HotFK, IIRC (I can never remember what exactly is in HotFK) - do not get any 'leveled' attack powers that are compatible (swappable) with their parent classes, use entirely different progressions, and never get daily attack resources of any kind. That's very different - much, much more different from other pre-E classes than the psionic classes. The other Essentials sub-classes also use 'different' progressions, but those differences are mostly more cosmetic, they get some of their class features doled out later, or get a ritual-equivalent here or there, but they otherwise stick to the AEDU structure.

 

[The Little Raven]

HoS is the first non-essentials book that can be used completely without any PH.

So, people are able to use HoS with either the PHBs or the Essentials books, whichever they prefer. And that's a... bad thing?

3) After essentials, I saw no class or build still using the old advancement table. The only exception so far is the mage.
We are back to the point we have to compare classes with and without daily powers.

Did you not read any of the other non-Martial classes? All of which get at-will, encounter, and daily attack powers at the same rate (and at the same levels) as the other A/E/D classes, even if they are limited by their particular build to specific choices.

4) And it looks like we got no more classes with two primary abilities.

Which we haven't gotten since the PHB1. All classes developed since those four V-shaped classes have all been A-shaped. Is Essentials to blame for a design philosophy that has been in place for years?

 

[Aegeri]

Ok, last try

1) All splat books before Essentials required the PH1, at least for the rules. Essentials gave us the Rules Compendium.

So?

2) All splat books (no, I don't count the setting books) provided alternate builds and new powers for PH (1-3) classes (and, yes, the swordmage).

So? Some of those books didn't provide any builds for PHB1 classes at all, such as primal power. Does that make it bad? Are you denying that heroes of shadow does not contain options for original PHB characters?

3) After essentials, I saw no class or build still using the old advancement table. The only exception so far is the mage.

And Warpriest (albeit they do get their domains encounter powers chosen for them IIRC). The sentinel druid is similar, albeit they don't have traditional encounter power options and only gain further uses of combined attack. Which is a pretty bad deal I agree, but they still get druid dailies.

4) And it looks like we got no more classes with two primary abilities.

Hate to tell you this but I don't think there were any other V shaped classes beyond the original PHB, but I'm not 100% sure on that. So there is nothing new here and it's a good decision, V shaped classes have suffered heavily for it.

 

[Walking Dad]

So, people are able to use HoS with either the PHBs or the Essentials books, whichever they prefer. And that's a... bad thing?

No, this is great, just new, just as I said

Did you not read any of the other non-Martial classes? All of which get at-will, encounter, and daily attack powers at the same rate (and at the same levels) as the other A/E/D classes, even if they are limited by their particular build to specific choices.

Yes, I did

Call Celestial Steed Paladin Utility 4

PH characters gain no utilities at level 4. There are other examples, but I'm to lazy to search. Still great that other paladins can take it as a level 6 power.

Which we haven't gotten since the PHB1. All classes developed since those four V-shaped classes have all been A-shaped. Is Essentials to blame for a design philosophy that has been in place for years?

Not blaming it. I'm very happy to get rid of dual primary classes. But Arcane Power, Divine Power and Martial Power 1&2 all had
Con & Cha Warlock powers
Str & Wis Cleric powers
Str & Dex Ranger powers

and they were made later than PH1.

 

[Walking Dad]

So?

Just said it is a difference

So? Some of those books didn't provide any builds for PHB1 classes at all, such as primal power. Does that make it bad? Are you denying that heroes of shadow does not contain options for original PHB characters?

No. But all options are usable without any PHB (I always mean 1-3 by this) classes. That is the new thing

And Warpriest (albeit they do get their domains encounter powers chosen for them IIRC). The sentinel druid is similar, albeit they don't have traditional encounter power options and only gain further uses of combined attack. Which is a pretty bad deal I agree, but they still get druid dailies

.
Glad that you agree with this.
For the warpriest, I really like the sun build. Will play this other the 'laser cleric' every day
I hope to see a new ranged cleric variant, too.

Hate to tell you this but I don't think there were any other V shaped classes beyond the original PHB, but I'm not 100% sure on that. So there is nothing new here and it's a good decision, V shaped classes have suffered heavily for it.

Totally agree. But the Powers book still gave powers for two primary abilities. See post above.

 

[MrMyth]

1) All splat books before Essentials required the PH1, at least for the rules. Essentials gave us the Rules Compendium.

Again, pretty much just a superficial distinction. I don't see how that has any effect on the content itself.

2) All splat books (no, I don't count the setting books) provided alternate builds and new powers for PH (1-3) classes (and, yes, the swordmage).

Why ignore the setting books?

Anyway, they did provide alternate builds and powers. But, as you note, for the PHB 1, 2 and 3. Three seperate books. Arcane Power supported PHB1, PHB2, and FRPG. How is that any different from Heroes of Shadow supporting PHB1, HotFK, and HotFL?

Your original comments seemed to be focused on the fact that you needed the Heroes books to make full use of Heroes of Shadow. The same is true of Arcane Power, and needing two more books than the PHB1 to get full use out of it.

There is no difference at all.

HoS is the first non-essentials book that can be used completely without any PH.

Only because HotFK and HotFL are taking the equivalent place of PHB4. Guess what? Psionic Power pretty much just supported PHB3 - it provided no support for PHB1 at all. Is that somehow better because PHB3 had the name "Player's Handbook" in the title? That somehow makes it a more important part of the game than the Essentials Heroes books?

I just still don't see the difference. You are ok with Arcane Power which supports the PHB1 and PHB2 and a setting book, the FRPG. You are ok with Psionic Power supporting PHB3 but not earlier books at all. But Heroes of Shadow, which also supports the most recent player books (HotFK and HotFL) but also supports the PHB1... is somehow a different approach?

3) After essentials, I saw no class or build still using the old advancement table. The only exception so far is the mage.
We are back to the point we have to compare classes with and without daily powers.

The Mage and the Warpriest all use the standard advancement system. The Hexblade, Sentinel and Cavalier still have daily powers, even if they have no choices as far as Encounter powers. The Scout, Hunter, Thief, Slayer and Knight do not get Daily powers and do not have choices as far as Encounter powers.

And, in PHB3, we had Psionic classes who also had a different form of advancement for encounter powers.

So, again - was PHB3 and Psionic Power just as big a concern? Was it just as big a break in design philosophy from the previous books?

PHB3 and Psionic Power provided no support for the PHB1 classes, outside of some race options and a few feats. Heroes of the Fallen Lands and Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms provided new utility powers for Rangers, Rogues and Fighters, new daily and utility powers for Warlocks, Druids and Paladins, and new daily, encounter, at-will and utility powers for Wizards and Clerics. Plus new feats for everyone.

Heroes of Shadow looks like it will provide new powers for Wizards, Clerics, Paladins and Warlocks. New races and Paragon Paths and feats for, presumably, nearly everyone.

No support has been taken away from prior products. Indeed, compared to PHB3 and Psionic Power, support has only been given back.

4)And it looks like we got no more classes with two primary abilities.

Which neither PHB2 nor PHB3 provided. A design decision that was made a while back.

It is true that Arcane Power provided support for the Con Warlock, Divine Power provided support for the Str Cleric, and Martial Powers provided support for the Str Ranger.

As for the Cleric and the Warlock in Heroes of Shadow - we honestly don't know yet, not having seen the powers in it. Even so, not supporting two specific builds from PHB1 hardly means that it does not support the PHB1 at all. Martial Power didn't support the Con Warlock or the Str Cleric either - but instead supported other classes instead.

The question isn't what Heroes of Shadow doesn't support, but instead what it does.

 

[Walking Dad]

Have I to answer the third giy to this???

Again, pretty much just a superficial distinction. I don't see how that has any effect on the content itself.

Calling it superficial still don't negate the statement.

Why ignore the setting books?

Anyway, they did provide alternate builds and powers. But, as you note, for the PHB 1, 2 and 3. Three seperate books. Arcane Power supported PHB1, PHB2, and FRPG. How is that any different from Heroes of Shadow supporting PHB1, HotFK, and HotFL?

Your original comments seemed to be focused on the fact that you needed the Heroes books to make full use of Heroes of Shadow. The same is true of Arcane Power, and needing two more books than the PHB1 to get full use out of it.

There is no difference at all.

Yes, but it was always the PHBs. And this is the difference.
Hey, you needed a Playstation 2 to play Tekken 3. But you could play Tekken 1 on the old Playstation. No difference?

Only because HotFK and HotFL are taking the equivalent place of PHB4. Guess what? Psionic Power pretty much just supported PHB3 - it provided no support for PHB1 at all. Is that somehow better because PHB3 had the name "Player's Handbook" in the title? That somehow makes it a more important part of the game than the Essentials Heroes books?

I just still don't see the difference. You are ok with Arcane Power which supports the PHB1 and PHB2 and a setting book, the FRPG. You are ok with Psionic Power supporting PHB3 but not earlier books at all. But Heroes of Shadow, which also supports the most recent player books (HotFK and HotFL) but also supports the PHB1... is somehow a different approach?

Great points. But HotFK and HotFL are not the equivalent to a PHB4. They are an alternative to the PHB line. And one better supported by HoS than the PHB line.

The Mage and the Warpriest all use the standard advancement system. The Hexblade, Sentinel and Cavalier still have daily powers, even if they have no choices as far as Encounter powers. The Scout, Hunter, Thief, Slayer and Knight do not get Daily powers and do not have choices as far as Encounter powers.

And, in PHB3, we had Psionic classes who also had a different form of advancement for encounter powers.

So, again - was PHB3 and Psionic Power just as big a concern? Was it just as big a break in design philosophy from the previous books?

PHB3 and Psionic Power provided no support for the PHB1 classes, outside of some race options and a few feats. Heroes of the Fallen Lands and Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms provided new utility powers for Rangers, Rogues and Fighters, new daily and utility powers for Warlocks, Druids and Paladins, and new daily, encounter, at-will and utility powers for Wizards and Clerics. Plus new feats for everyone.

Heroes of Shadow looks like it will provide new powers for Wizards, Clerics, Paladins and Warlocks. New races and Paragon Paths and feats for, presumably, nearly everyone.

No support has been taken away from prior products. Indeed, compared to PHB3 and Psionic Power, support has only been given back.

Long paragraph, I hope I catch everything:
Psionic Powers advancement is much similar to the PH1 one than you say. They gain Psionic Points exactly the same level they would get encounter powers. And choose at-wills they use as encounter powers at the same level.
But

Call Celestial Steed Paladin Utility 4

And heroes of shadow provides no support to any class not present in HotFK and HotFL (ok, it also provides a new one: Vampire and supports the essentials assassin (formerly DDI exclusive)).
For new feats in HotFK and HotFL, many were from the PHB line or to overpower the feats in it (new expertise feats, for example).

Which neither PHB2 nor PHB3 provided. A design decision that was made a while back.

It is true that Arcane Power provided support for the Con Warlock, Divine Power provided support for the Str Cleric, and Martial Powers provided support for the Str Ranger.

As for the Cleric and the Warlock in Heroes of Shadow - we honestly don't know yet, not having seen the powers in it. Even so, not supporting two specific builds from PHB1 hardly means that it does not support the PHB1 at all.

I will take this seriously after I have seen Str cleric and Con warlock powers in the book (maybe the binder is Con primary???)

Martial Power didn't support the Con Warlock or the Str Cleric either - but instead supported other classes instead.

Yes, other classes. Not the half of an existing class.
And it provided Dex and Str powers for the only Martial class with two primaries. Your point?

The question isn't what Heroes of Shadow doesn't support, but instead what it does.

My answer:
It supports HotFK and HotFL, and by virtue of backward-compatibility most of the stuff in the PHB line.

 

[MrMyth]

Calling it superficial still don't negate the statement.

But the... the list was specifically for non-superficial changes between this book and previous ones. That was a superficial change. Just because they got rules from the Rule Compendium instead of the PHB doesn't affect the content in the book itself, when those two sources provide nigh-identical rules.

Yes, but it was always the PHBs. And this is the difference.
Hey, you needed a Playstation 2 to play Tekken 3. But you could play Tekken 1 on the old Playstation. No difference?

That's not a reasonable comparison at all. All of these books use the same rules system. They are all part of the same game, not a series of different games based on the same setting and concept.

Once again - yes, you can't use the full content of Heroes of Shadow if you don't have the other Heroes books. Why is this different from Arcane Power, where you can't use the full content without also having the PHB2 and FRPG?

Great points. But HotFK and HotFL are not the equivalent to a PHB4. They are an alternative to the PHB line. And one better supported by HoS than the PHB line.

Why does that matter?

Your original point was that Heroes of Shadow did not support any earlier content. This is not true.

More than that, we actually have an instance of a book that offers little support for the PHB - Psionic Power and Primal Power. Both provides support mainly for the newest release, and thus had little to offer those with just the PHB. Heroes of Shadow - as well as HotFK and HotFL themselves - offer more support for the PHB than those books.

So why is one only being 'backwards compatible' (while directly providing new content for that book) while others are considered support for the old model (despite providing new content for only one specific new book)?

Psionic Powers advancement is much similar to the PH1 one than you say. They gain Psionic Points exactly the same level they would get encounter powers. And choose at-wills they use as encounter powers at the same level.

It still was a different advancement scheme. And again, the point isn't just about that, but about support.

Psionic Power provides virtually no support for anyone who doesn't have the PHB3. Yet I'm assuming you don't feel it represented a shift in WotC declaring that only Psionic classes would be supported from there on out. Why not? What is different between then and now?

And heroes of shadow provides no support to any class not present in HotFK and HotFL (ok, it also provides a new one: Vampire and supports the essentials assassin (formerly DDI exclusive)).

It's true that Essentials has a handful of utility powers at unusual levels that can't be as easily taken. But the bulk of powers are interchangeable with PHB characters.

The classes that Heroes of Shadow supports are the Wizard, Cleric, Paladin, and Warlock. Yes, those are classes represented in HotFK and HotFL. They are also represented in the PHB, and thus support absolutely exists for those who have the PHB but not the Heroes books.

We have 20 pages of explicit support for those classes and not for their Essentials counterparts. We have 20 pages of support for the Essentials versions that will almost certainly contain powers of use to those with the PHB. We have 12 pages of Paragon Paths, whose requirements appear to support characters from across the spectrum, without any specific tendency towards Essentials builds. We have 60 pages of new classes and builds and 15 pages of new races of us to those without the Heroes books. We have 7 pages of what appear to be new bloodlines and backgrounds for existing races. 4 pages of Epic Destinies and 4 pges of feats, and some amount of equipment, nearly all of which should be of use to those with just the PHB.

That is a substantial amount of support for the 'earlier system'. The fact that the book also supports Essentials builds does not in any way detract from that.

I will take this seriously after I have seen Str cleric and Con warlock powers in the book (maybe the binder is Con primary???)

Did the FRPG provide support for Warlocks? It added a new build - the Dark Pact. It had basically no support for Con warlocks, though - since the Dark Pact was a Charisma build.

Maybe the Binder will be focused on Con. Maybe it will be focused on Charisma. If it is focused on only one, and the book only provides powers of that stat, that is still supporting the PHB Warlock.

Not supporting part of a class doesn't subtract from support that is provided. If the book supports the Wisdom Cleric and Charisma Warlock, but doesn't support the Strength Cleric and Constitution Warlock, it has still provided support for PHB characters.

It supports HotFK and HotFL, and by virtue of backward-compatibility most of the stuff in the PHB line.

What is the difference between backwards-compatability and support?

If Arcane Power provides my Wizard with 20 new illusion powers that support his build, and Heroes of Shadow does the same, what is the difference?

Why would that not count as support?

 

[Walking Dad]

I don't think I can show you my point in a way you would agree.

I will stop posting in this thread now.

Happy gaming!