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Rule of the Three (1st of May)

But if the Simple option is almost always inferior to the Complex options (and never better), then Simple gains a reputation of being a trap for newbs.

It's not a trap if they want to play a simpler character, whether experienced or newb.

There will always be some spectacular combo that wizards didn't think would happen. Once that info is out are we all trapped because we don't choose it?


Prepackaged but interchangeable feats makes it easy for beginners, simple for anyone, and customizable for those that want to. Win/Win/Win.
 

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So are you suggesting doing away with Feats and Skills and powers/abilities gained anywhere but in an actual character class?

If he isn't, I will :lol:. With a caveat, of course. I think a singular class is a little too restrictive, but I think feats and skill points were a little too loose (and just killed DM prep time.) So, I kinda like backgrounds and themes for the middle ground they provide. They give you a decent amount of variety, so that a 3-fighter party can actually have three unique characters. Really, that's all I want from a customization system.

I know some people worry about having "pregen" characters, but if you think about it even 4 races, 10 classes, 10 backgrounds, and 10 themes would be 4 thousand different combinations, without counting the ability scores, and spells. Given that those numbers are likely going to be higher, I feel like that should be pretty good for variety.
 

Of course. And the more tools the player has to express the uniqueness of their character, through mechanics, the better.
Uniqueness can come from much more than mere mechanics - so much more, in fact, that uniqueness-by-mechanics is almost redundant.

dkyle said:
But I'm firmly in the school of thought that mechanics matter. If a situation resolves purely through the use of well-defined mechanics, used by the players how they saw fit, that is the pinnacle of a good, well-roleplayed outcome.
It may well be the pinnacle of a good outcome, but there's no way of saying how much - if any - roleplaying went into it.

There's another thread going in here somewhere talking about the difference between telling the DM "I use my strength to crush a mug, hoping to make the little rat fear me" and "I roll to Intimidate". Both use - or can use - the exact same resolution mechanic, whatever that may be; but one involves roleplaying and one does not, and from a purely mechanical perspective it is impossible to tell how that resolution was arrived at.
dkyle said:
The more DM fiat creeps in, the less the mechanics determined the outcome, the less I feel like I'm actually "roleplaying", and the more I feel like I'm playing the game of "guess how the DM will react".
Sounds to me like you just don't trust your DM(s).

That said, there's a certain amount of realism in never being sure how the other guy (whether it's your DM in the game, your boss in real life, whatever) will react; and that's where the roleplaying - both by you and the DM - comes in.

Lan-"I'm a mechanically bland 1e Fighter, and at the same time one of the more unique characters you'll ever meet"-efan
 

4E's a lot more balanced, and resistant to optimization, than you seem to think.

...and, at the same time, I'd say it's easier to break and showcase disparity between optimization and non-optimization than you seem to think.

It only gets worse as the game scales.
 

I wouldn't mind something like:

Prepackaged Theme: 3 feats and 1 theme feature
Make Your Own Theme: Pick your 3 feats

So if your theme is (intentionally picking boring / simple options):

Berserker
Feature: While bloodied, you deal +2 damage.
Power Attack
Powerful Charge
Great Fortitude

And someone making their own might switch powerful charge to Cleave, or whatever. Close enough.
 

It's not a trap if they want to play a simpler character, whether experienced or newb.

It's a trap if they expected to have an effective character, in comparison to their peers, and don't.

I simply do not buy this notion that all theses people who want simple characters don't care how effective their characters are.

There will always be some spectacular combo that wizards didn't think would happen. Once that info is out are we all trapped because we don't choose it?
That's clearly not a "trap" by common usage of the term. A Trap is something that looks good, is treated as good by the rules text, but is clearly not, once you gain a degree of system mastery. It does not simply mean "not the absolute most optimal".

But really, what is and is not a "trap" is besides the point. Bad design should be avoided, period. From overpowered combos, to underpowered Themes. One instance of bad design mistakes does not justify another.

Prepackaged but interchangeable feats makes it easy for beginners, simple for anyone, and customizable for those that want to. Win/Win/Win.
Makes it easy for beginners to get disappointed when their characters suck at doing what they want them to do. This is nothing more than rewarding system mastery, and punishing new players.

Having mechanics that are "easy and simple" is not enough. The "easy and simple" must be balanced with the customizable options. Otherwise, as far as I'm concerned, 5E will have failed in its goal of modularity.

Uniqueness can come from much more than mere mechanics - so much more, in fact, that uniqueness-by-mechanics is almost redundant.

Uniqueness in personality or decisionmaking, sure.

Uniqueness in capacity to interact with the world, no. That's determined by mechanics (or DM fiat).

When playing a game, a character's ability to interact with the world is pretty darn important.

It may well be the pinnacle of a good outcome, but there's no way of saying how much - if any - roleplaying went into it.

There's another thread going in here somewhere talking about the difference between telling the DM "I use my strength to crush a mug, hoping to make the little rat fear me" and "I roll to Intimidate". Both use - or can use - the exact same resolution mechanic, whatever that may be; but one involves roleplaying and one does not, and from a purely mechanical perspective it is impossible to tell how that resolution was arrived at.
Both are roleplaying. The first is a narrative roleplaying style, the other is a declarative style. As in, narrating what your character is doing, as opposed to declaring what he is attempting to do (with the assumption that the character's knowledge and training fills in the details). Both are in-character decisions. Which one is more desirable depends on the tastes of the group.

Sounds to me like you just don't trust your DM(s).
It has nothing to do with trust. I've DM'd D&D much more than I've played it, and I reject DM fiat just as soundly as a DM as I do as a player. To me, the more a world operates on well defined mechanics, the more "real" and immersive it is.

...and, at the same time, I'd say it's easier to break and showcase disparity between optimization and non-optimization than you seem to think.

It only gets worse as the game scales.

This isn't really the place for that discussion, but my point is mainly that I disagree with the defeatist attitude I keep seeing, that optimizers will inevitably break games, so why bother trying to balance them in the face of that?

There was a lot of improvement in this area from 3.5 to 4E. 4E's not perfect, of course, but that just means 5E should aim to be even better.
 

The obvious solution to me would be that custom built themes and the like get less build points than pre-built ones. Though this might leave a few people that are just trying to make something roleplay oriented that doesn't come prepackaged feel a little out in the cold.
 

Warning: this is getting long...
It's a trap if they expected to have an effective character, in comparison to their peers, and don't.

I simply do not buy this notion that all theses people who want simple characters don't care how effective their characters are.
Simply solved by making the mechanical choices almost nonexistent a la 1e and letting in-game roleplay define the character.

Mechanical effectiveness is not the be-all and end-all of a character...or at least I sure hope it isn't, as if it is you and I are no longer really playing the same game.
Uniqueness in personality or decisionmaking, sure.

Uniqueness in capacity to interact with the world, no. That's determined by mechanics (or DM fiat).

When playing a game, a character's ability to interact with the world is pretty darn important.
And is driven by in-game personality and-or decision making. :)

Don't get me wrong - rules and mechanics are necessary to allow for a playable game - but they needs must get out of the way whenever possible. It sounds like (and please correct me if I'm wrong) you see the rules as the world; where I see the DM as the world, aided and abetted by the rules when needed.
Both are roleplaying. The first is a narrative roleplaying style, the other is a declarative style.
Absolutely disagree. The first is roleplaying. The second is game-playing; and role-playing - as in taking on a role and playing it - is pretty much nowhere to be seen.
Which one is more desirable depends on the tastes of the group.
True.

It has nothing to do with trust. I've DM'd D&D much more than I've played it, and I reject DM fiat just as soundly as a DM as I do as a player. To me, the more a world operates on well defined mechanics, the more "real" and immersive it is.
I think we agree that the game world has to operate with a sound internal consistency. Whether that comes from mechanics, DM fiat, player-driven input, or some combination of these and-or other things, is up to both the group and the game system.
This isn't really the place for that discussion, but my point is mainly that I disagree with the defeatist attitude I keep seeing, that optimizers will inevitably break games, so why bother trying to balance them in the face of that?
The way to beat the optimzers is to make the mechanics simple enough that there is really nothing to optimize.

Failing that, the only other way to blunt them a bit is to put something loud and clear in the PH about playing to the spirit of the game being hugely preferable over trying to break the game, and then hope each group sees fit to run the optimizers out.

Lanefan
 

Simply solved by making the mechanical choices almost nonexistent a la 1e and letting in-game roleplay define the character.
Mechanical choices for my little guy in Monopoly are 'practically nonexistant', but that doesn't make it a good roleplaying game. You can roleplay in Monopoly, but the scope is really limited.

And [a character's ability to interact with the world] is driven by in-game personality and-or decision making. :)
And the decision making has to be based on an understanding of how the world and the character's abilities work. That understanding can be really efficiently delivered to the player by the rules and systems.

Don't get me wrong - rules and mechanics are necessary to allow for a playable game - but they needs must get out of the way whenever possible. It sounds like (and please correct me if I'm wrong) you see the rules as the world; where I see the DM as the world, aided and abetted by the rules when needed.
The "DM as the world" is a broken concept. It can only be true of an author, and even then the reader supplies a significant portion of the world as soon as the book is actually read, rather than simply existing. In fact, I think perhaps daydreams may be the only times when lone "world creation" can be entirely the situation.

In a roleplaying game, the "reality" of the imagined world is shared - or else it has no meaning as a "game" at all. All of the players - including but not limited to the GM - therefore deliver input to the "shared imagined scenario". The rules, therefore, do far, far more than "aid and abet the DM" - they form the shared language, based upon which these contributions can build the shared "reality".

Without written rules you have the GM trying to convey the entirety of the world as they envision it to the assembled players - each of whom undoubtedly has a selection of preconceived ideas about the world generated by the first descriptions and what those descriptions trigger based on their earlier experience. This cannot happen perfectly in a 300+ page book; expecting it to happen in a few hours of conversation is, at best, wildly optimistic.

So, what generally results is (i) players relying on how well they know the GM to guess what picture of the game world the GM holds in his or her head, (ii) players having to repeatedly revise their own vision of the game world as it becomes clear that it does not accord with what the GM was thinking all along, (iii) some players doing better than others in the game, because their own world models more closely align with the GM's world model than other players, (iv) some other players frustrated because they need constantly to adjust their world model to fit a concept that makes limited sense to them, and a variety of other effects.

Rules and mechanics are a shorthand way to communicate how the game world works so that all the participants have a clear and shared view of that. This makes building a shared fantasy story immeasurably easier.

Absolutely disagree. The first is roleplaying. The second is game-playing; and role-playing - as in taking on a role and playing it - is pretty much nowhere to be seen.
Absolutely disagree ;). The difference between the two has nothing to do with "roleplaying" by the definition used by you in the earlier parts of your post! "Roleplaying" has to do with making decisions and portraying the personality of the character - both of the examples given do that. Now, one of them does it with more flavour and from a more in-game-world point of view, it's true - but both display the character's personality and represent an in-character decision.

If you want game-world focussed flavour (and I take it from your comments here that you do), then I suggest taking a look at why the player might, quite rationally and not out of some (lazily) assumed fault like "laziness", choose to announce a "use of Intimidate" and not a more colourful description of the character's actions. And I suggest that this relates directly to the "rules" and "DM fiat", curiously enough. If a player has a character who is good at Intimidation, but not good at, say Bluff, and the skill used is to be decided by the DM based on (the DM's conception of) the character's actions, then I can quite understand the player saying "Intimidate" quite explicitly as part of their action description. Saying "I use my strength to crush a mug, hoping to make the little rat fear me" leaves the door open for the DM to (honestly and without malice, perhaps) see this as a use of "Bluff" rather than "Intimidate" - and the player and character both are hosed.

The way to get more game-world focus and flavour into player action declaration, it seems to me, is to make it clear that the control over which skill is to be used lies with the player, not with the DM...

...unless they get lazy, and just declare a skill name alone, perhaps? :devil:

I think we agree that the game world has to operate with a sound internal consistency. Whether that comes from mechanics, DM fiat, player-driven input, or some combination of these and-or other things, is up to both the group and the game system.
Agreed - but there is a huge, steaming issue with it coming from DM fiat, which is that the players need to know what it consists of! The only way I know of to address this is via communication; the rules are one very good medium for that communication. Another is a voluminous world description, possibly contained in a vast agglomeration of game supplements, world books, monster descriptions and other publications created over a period of (say, just as an example) 30 years or so.

Which is one reason why people who used this model for their game world communication were POed about 4e, of course. Personally, however, I have for some while used Hârn for this style of "world basis sharing" because it has, in my opinion, done a better job of it (more world supplements than rules, fixed time point for all description, etc.).

The way to beat the optimzers is to make the mechanics simple enough that there is really nothing to optimize.

Failing that, the only other way to blunt them a bit is to put something loud and clear in the PH about playing to the spirit of the game being hugely preferable over trying to break the game, and then hope each group sees fit to run the optimizers out.
Why? Why declare one mode of fun "badwrongfun" and deny those who enjoy it any place in the game? That strikes me as just bigoted and spiteful.

On the "pre-gens are always suboptimal", for example, it strikes me that an open playtest offers an ideal way to approach this. Let the charop guys play with the self-build system for a few months; you'll soon find which are the optimal builds. If the builds they generate don't give good flavour, tweak the "feats" and suchlike elements until they do. Then use the optimised builds as your "Themes". Eliminate or buff up the choices not included in the Themes at the same time so that those who want a different flavour to their character have options that, while not as good as the "standard" characters are not disastrous, and you're done.

Oh - and then don't succumb to the temptation to publish a slew of new feats that break the optimal nature of the original Themes to make a fast buck. That might be the tough part, actually...
 

It's a trap if they expected to have an effective character, in comparison to their peers, and don't.

Fair enough, I don't see the problem as being as of a great magnitude as you do from what they've said, but I understand your thoughts.

I simply do not buy this notion that all theses people who want simple characters don't care how effective their characters are.

Wasn't saying that, though you could read it that way.

But really, what is and is not a "trap" is besides the point. Bad design should be avoided, period. From overpowered combos, to underpowered Themes. One instance of bad design mistakes does not justify another.

Totally agree.

Having mechanics that are "easy and simple" is not enough. The "easy and simple" must be balanced with the customizable options. Otherwise, as far as I'm concerned, 5E will have failed in its goal of modularity.

See this is what I think they are doing BY making feats/themes modular. I think that you feel this will guarantee prepackaged themes suck (which it could). While I think if balanced properly, the theme may be the best choice for a specific task.

A short and lousy example, bear with me.

Secret Dungeon Explorer Theme Thingy:
Feats: Jump, Safe Fall, Find Secret Doors, Find Traps, Disarm Traps.

Now, you could swap out stuff (theoretically and hopefully) but what I envision is the prefab theme is the best "Secret Dungeon Explorer" and no combination of other feats tops it* (maybe broadens it).

My thoughts...and I believe our opinions may be closer than we think.




*I fear where you will be right is when we eventually experience supplement and feat bloat.
 

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