Rule-of-Three: 07/10/2012

[Remathilis]

I already have one, see:

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XXX?

I've seen ALL your movies!

err...

Nevermind.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Tactical modules that give no tactical abilities specific to characters are nearly worthless.

Too much fiddly tactical mess in an abstract system with ablative hit points is worthless IMHO.

Hated it in pre-3.x D&D that wizards never got more spells for high int. Anyone remembers this time?

I take it your DM never saw intelligence table ll (pg 10 in the 1E PHB)?

Your chance to know a given spell improved with higher INT as did the minimum and maximum number of spells you could learn.

So yes you did get more spells for a high INT. Actually more spells not extra slots. More spell slots just encourage wizards to think with their spellbooks instead of their supposedly gifted minds.

 

[Fifth Element]

I take it your DM never saw intelligence table ll (pg 10 in the 1E PHB)?

Your chance to know a given spell improved with higher INT as did the minimum and maximum number of spells you could learn.

So yes you did get more spells for a high INT. Actually more spells not extra slots.

The context makes it clear that he meant daily spell slots, as anyone with any experience of both 1E and 3E would know.

 

[Mika]

That intelligence table led to some rather counter-intuitive play by the wizard in my 2E game. She deliberately rejected the chance to copy a spell from a scroll into her spellbook because she was closing in on her maximum number of spells for that level and wanted to keep the remaining slots open for spells that were more useful than the one on that scroll.

In regard to the "5 minute adventuring day", one problem is that there are only story/world reasons not to take a long rest whenever you can -- there are few if any mechanical rewards for pressing on. In 4E, milestones get you extra daily magic item uses (eventually nixed) and action points (which are of diminishing value if you start accumulating more than you expect to be able to use that day). In prior editions, the only reward for pressing on is that you might go into a new encounter with your buffs from a previous encounter still in effect -- not much incentive if you have time to rest up, regain all of your resources, and re-cast those buffs. All you lose from taking an extended rest is time -- and the value of the lost time is strictly up to DM fiat.

Maybe each encounter during a day should grant more XPs than the one before it? After all, it is more difficult to clear out seven dungeon rooms in one day than one at a time over the course of a week, so maybe the players should be rewarded for accomplishing a more difficult task.

 

[tuxgeo]

Now that you mention it, I like housing the idea in themes, too.

But the big reason is because wizards have an expectation of their play experience being "limited, but powerful." While warlocks have an expectation of their play experience being "always, but not always powerful." And sorcerers are somewhere in between.

If you don't allow wizards to be "limited, but powerful," then you're taking away one of the fun parts of playing a wizard. A wizard that always has at-will magic spells violates that. A wizard that can opt into having at-will magic (such as via a theme) ain't so bad. . . .

Instead of housing such a distinction in Themes, perhaps WotC could house the distinction in sub-classes, thus:
(1) The Arcanist, who gets no At-Wills but does get Ritual Casting;
(2) The Mage, who gets At-Wills and School Specialization but no Rituals; and
(3) The Witch, who gets one At-Will and a Familiar. ("Sound familiar?")

That way, even people who don't use Backgrounds and Themes could still play the type of Wizard they prefer. ("It's an ideal solution!")

 

[Tovec]

So what happens if as a DM I want to run an adventuring day that lasts longer than what you planned for? What if the PCs decided they want to use up resources more quickly that what you planned for?

My question is what happens if you want to run a game that is SHORTER than they planned for. Too often I am in the position where I'm NOT having the party do 4 encounters a day. Instead they'll usually crank out one maybe two (typically they are larger but that is really irrelevant) and then rest. That is intentional on their behalf and mine. I don't want to have to push through 4 encounters every (in game) day just to have them use up their powers. This consequently has them have too many powers or too many options for the encounters of their level, with very few ways of balancing it or reducing their strength.

That is a major complaint I have with psionics. As I was informed by my powergaming psionics player one time "yes but if we have 5 encounters today I'm screwed." Since that never happened he was able to more easily "nova" than anyone else in the party and I hated it.
--Also note that nova situation or scry and fry almost never happened in my games.

The more I read random ideas about length of an adventuring day, the more I want infinite resources. When you rest, you regain all your hit points, powers, everything. You're ready for the next encounter. Go! No daily powers. No healing surges. You run through as many encounters as you need to, to get your adventuring day done.

I know, there is supposed to be a resource management game within D&D. But I'm tired of it. I don't want to keep track of it. I just want to adventure, interact with new environments, new NPC's, new foes, I want to save damsels in distress, chase after thieves and brigands, investigate haunted houses, siege castles, lead nations, walk through hell, and kill gods. I don't want to count how many charges are left in my wand, how many arrows are in my quiver, how many surges (fine, hit dice if you must) I have left, how many dailies I have remaining.

What matters to me most, is being in the moment. I don't want to worry about how many times I cast fireball today, and see if I can squeeze out another one when a horde of gibberlings is coming at me. I don't want to worry about standing around, sucking on a healing wand before I run up the stairs of a burning building to save a mother and her child. I don't want to get to the doorstep of the big bad demon, and yell through the door, sorry buddy I'm out of healing, gotta go, I'll fight you tomorrow. I want to Just Do It.

There is also real life time constraints. We might have 3 weeks between sessions. If we're on the same adventuring day, it might mean I'm not going to cast any fireballs today because I cast one last session and I'm out. I've been out for 3 weeks, I WANT to blow something up!

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to play the resource management game, it's a large part of tactics we use, and I enjoy tactical play, but I'd be happier, if the resources were confined between short rests, rather than extended rests.

I'm just curious, are you a DM .. like ever?

Also, being at full power after every fight works for some but it definitely doesn't work for others.

Also, that would effectively mean you could go from killing rats in a cellar to killing Asmodeus all without having a sniffle slow you down.

Also, if your group hates spending time during their precious gameplay time doing the "downtime" stuff then skip it. That is fine, skip it. I once played in a game where it was assumed, as a standing order, that all party members had free access to buying and selling any and all gear between games. It was a very rushed and crazy game. Don't get me wrong it was a lot of fun, but it wasn't something I wanted to have in every game and certainly not in every campaign. It was very immersion breaking - it was our weekly meatgrinder game.

I would love it, as long as the character remained functional (no comas please). Your leg might get caught in a bear trap, and you suffer a -1 penalty to speed for the remainder of an adventure, and have disadvantage on ability checks that would require you to use that leg. Or you might suffer rapid onset acute paranoia after facing some illithids, and can't accept assistance from your allies on ability checks because you don't trust them. I'd go so far as to say story based injuries would be fun to deal with.

Hit points are just a combat resource. Injury could be a system of its own. But now, we're gonna hear, "this does not feel like D&D".

Bear traps cause a -1? ONLY?

How does it mend? When does it mend?

A -1 speed penalty. What does that even mean?

one of the biggest reasons that spellcasters often burned through their spells very quickly was a desire to always be doing something magical

I though the biggest reason the spellcasters wanted to go nova was because going nova provided the following (where not going nova didn't):
1: Allowed you to kill things really quickly.
2: Allowed insane combinations of spells and effects.
3: Allowed scry and fry tactics, or any tactics that were "teleport in and wreak havoc"
I didn't realize that wizards went nova because it was a desire to do things magical all the time.

Heck, the only times in our games where wizards blew through their higher level spells and were out was when it was necessary. Which then necessitated the need to rest and recoup those spells. Yes they could use lower levels spells - which they invariably still had - but those were often not nearly as useful as their highest level at any given moment.

 

[Mengu]

I'm just curious, are you a DM .. like ever?

Yeah, about half the time.

Also, being at full power after every fight works for some but it definitely doesn't work for others.

Right, I am just stating my preferences. Just one view of many.

Also, that would effectively mean you could go from killing rats in a cellar to killing Asmodeus all without having a sniffle slow you down.

Indeed. And one could play that way. Or not. It's not like I haven't seen 15 levels in 15 days, in previous editions of D&D with monty haul campaigns. It's a choice. However, it is not a wild assumption that there will be down time between adventures for most normal campaigns.

Also, if your group hates spending time during their precious gameplay time doing the "downtime" stuff then skip it. That is fine, skip it.

If it is skippable, I will. If game balance between characters hinges on it, then I can't.

Bear traps cause a -1? ONLY?

Or character is bedridden for 2 weeks, then dies from infection... whatever mechanic seems appropriate for the setting/campaign/adventure/group.

How does it mend? When does it mend?

A -1 speed penalty. What does that even mean?

It's not like I'm presenting fleshed out rules, just a hypothetical scenario of what might happen, and types of scenarios I wouldn't mind seeing. You're reading way too much into it.

 

[Minigiant]

Instead of housing such a distinction in Themes, perhaps WotC could house the distinction in sub-classes, thus:
(1) The Arcanist, who gets no At-Wills but does get Ritual Casting;
(2) The Mage, who gets At-Wills and School Specialization but no Rituals; and
(3) The Witch, who gets one At-Will and a Familiar. ("Sound familiar?")

That way, even people who don't use Backgrounds and Themes could still play the type of Wizard they prefer. ("It's an ideal solution!")

This is something that I think would be a great addition to the core.

Basically the 1st level wizard starts with 3 spells per day and 4 spells known.
Then they pick a wizard tradition:

Apprentice: You were taught be a more experienced wizard who thought you several low level spells. Gain 3 Daily Spells Known.
Arcanist: You found a wizard's spellbook and managed to understand a few minor spells after many readings. Gain 3 At-will Spells Known.

Apprentice: Prepared Spells: alarm, burning hands, comprehend languages, grease, magic armor, shield, sleep. Cantrips: None.

Arcanist: Prepared Spells: burning hands, comprehend languages, shield, sleep. Cantrips: magic missile, ray of frost, shocking grasp.

 

[pemerton]

There is also real life time constraints. We might have 3 weeks between sessions. If we're on the same adventuring day, it might mean I'm not going to cast any fireballs today because I cast one last session and I'm out. I've been out for 3 weeks, I WANT to blow something up!

<snip>

I'd be happier, if the resources were confined between short rests, rather than extended rests.

Moldvay Basic didn't give you short-rest-only resources, but I think it was intended to deal with your real-life issue. I think that it was intended that at the end of each session the PCs would leave the dungeon. And then returning to home base, and recovering resources with a week or two of rest was taken for granted - next session's play begins back at the dungeon entrance!

Personally I enjoy the extra complexity that daily resources add - my group uses not only dailies, surges and APs but also the pre-Essentials daily magic item use rules - but I like encounter powers as well, and if I had to choose between dailies-only or encounter powers only, I'd choose encounter powers for the sorts of reason you give.

your resources get lower over the course of the day, and if not, there is no possibility for the DM, to make harder and less hard fights, if you ecpect all resources to recover after every fight.

Can't the GM vary the levels of the encounters, and/or their composition. Then the challenge will change even if the PCs are mechanically always the same going in. (This is what I used to do in my Rolemaster game, when the PCs were almost always at full strength going in - because when they got low on resources they would teleport home and rest up!)

Also, that would effectively mean you could go from killing rats in a cellar to killing Asmodeus all without having a sniffle slow you down.

I don't think that recovery time puts much of a dent in this. Assuming 4 encounters per day, and 12 encounters per level, that's 3 days per level. Let's call it a week to allow for a bit of travel time between rests. You can do the whole game in less than a year of ingame time.

If you want the passage of large amounts of time in D&D, you're not going to get it out of recovery times, unless these becomes much, much longer than they traditionally have been.

 

[Haldrik]

The 24-hour refresh cycle has several serious problems:

• gaming-ending disruptions by a 5-minute workday
• classes forever out of balance because the Wizard can semi-nova, and the Fighter cannot
• the Wizard cant keep up with an adventure story that has too many encounters
• the DM must ruin the adventure story with stupid pretexts to enforce mechanical rests

And so on.

Fortunately, it is easy to fix the 24-hour refresh.

Instead, allow players to refresh their “dramatic resources” whenever they can get a 1-hour rest.

Then if the day gets busy, the Wizard can prepare spells in the middle of the day, and press on with the rest of the non-daily classes. Since both the Wizard and the Fighter can press on, it is easier to balance these classes with eachother.

It allows for more organic storytelling.