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Rule of Three: 20/3/12

Removing a leader that is proven to be innefective is neither Good nor Evil, Lawful nor Chaotic.

In a Lawful structure, an innefective leader is evaluated, and voted off/impeached.
In a Chaotic structure, the leader is removed with little regard for due process.
In a Good society, the leader is treated fairly, and isn't over-punished for his errors.
In an Evil society, the leader is cut down harshly, perhaps even tortured as a sort of public "revenge" on his failure.
 

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Klaus - I'd say the difference would be on timing as well. Lawfuls would likely have a system in place (impeached is a good example) where leaders would be removed after due process. Chaotics wouldn't bother - they just remove the leader by either deposing him (coup, ostracizing him from the group) or possibly more direct means depending on their good/evil bent.

Yes, they might rescue their leader if they think that that leader is still key to their own benefit. Robin gets rescued because he's still of value to the Merry Men. Otherwise, he gets left to rot in jail while another leader gets picked.
 

Yes, they might rescue their leader if they think that that leader is still key to their own benefit. Robin gets rescued because he's still of value to the Merry Men. Otherwise, he gets left to rot in jail while another leader gets picked.

You're really, really reaching here. The Merry Men repeatedly risked their necks to save Robin Hood after he got himself into trouble (usually because he was showing off). The idea that they did so out of cold self-interest is ridiculous.

This is why I want traditional alignment gone or at least massively overhauled. You start with the proposition that the Merry Men were Chaotic Good, apply your definition of "Chaotic," and proceed to an insane conclusion that flies in the face of the whole Robin Hood legend. Redefine them as Neutral Good, or Lawful Good, or pretty much any alignment you like, and the same thing will happen, because each alignment carries a ton of baggage and is miles away from anything resembling a coherent human personality.

I'm cool with the idea of alignment as a kind of cosmic football jersey. If you play for Helm's team, you wear the shiny gold jersey with "Lawful Good" on the back. The only way you lose that jersey is if you cheese off Helm and he kicks you off the team. Helm being Helm, he's probably got some pretty clear rules for you to follow if you don't want to get kicked off. That's all fine. It's not about following your alignment, it's about doing what Helm says. If you sold your soul to Asmodeus and got the "Lawful Evil" jersey as a result, staying on the team is the easiest thing in the world--it's getting off that's a problem!

But as soon as the concept of alignment-appropriate behavior creeps in, you end up with Lawful Stupid paladins and Chaotic Psycho rogues and all the rest of it, not to mention arguments like this one.
 
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Oh hey, Dausuul, you'll get no disagreement from me. I think alignment should get dropped off the pier.

But, to be fair, I'm going more from the pop-culture version of Robin Hood than from the "original" stories (scare quotes because there are a number of different versions of the original stories). The Merry Men aren't so much interested in helping Robin because he's on the side of right and good, but because they really don't have a lot of choice and he keeps winning.

If Robin actually started losing, I think you'd see a very different story.
 

I want traditional alignment gone or at least massively overhauled.

<snip>

each alignment carries a ton of baggage and is miles away from anything resembling a coherent human personality.
And just to add to this very true statement - the fact that there is no real-world theory of moral philosophy (either normative or descriptive) that even approximates to D&D alignment is a further reason for dropping it as a waste of everyone's time and mental energy.

Dausuul;5861042I said:
I'm cool with the idea of alignment as a kind of cosmic football jersey.
This is how I see 4e and pre-AD&D alignment. There is no pretence that the LG/G/U/E/CE schema in 4e, or the L/N/C schema in OD&D and B/X, is a universally applicable schema of moral classification. It is obviously related to a particular cosmological struggle understood to be inherent in the game setting (gods vs primordials in 4e, order vs chaos in the pre-AD&D game).

It is the 9-aligment schema, with its pretense to universal applicability as a system of moral description and evaluation, twithout reference to any particular cosmological conflict, that causes endless alignment disputes about the alignments of Robin Hood, Batman, Abraham Lincoln etc. Whereas the question in fact shouldn't make any sense, given that none of these personages is located in the D&D cosmology.
 

Almost all alignment disputes evaporate if you accept the fact that lots of different personalities and behaviors (some mutually contradictory) can fall under the banner of a single alignment.

A lawful neutral samurai who follows a rigid code may find himself at odds with a militia of law neutral town guards if they disagree about whether he should surrender his katana.

A neutral good cleric may disagree with a neutral good ranger about whether an evil spirit should be bound into an ancient tree at the heart of a woodland shrine.?

You can't both argue that the alignment system isn't complex enough and then insist on interpreting it in the least complex manner possible. As long as alignments are broad categories and not a sort of choose-your-own-adventure sub-system for role-playing, then I really don't see what the problem is.
 


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Almost all alignment disputes evaporate if you accept the fact that lots of different personalities and behaviors (some mutually contradictory) can fall under the banner of a single alignment.

A lawful neutral samurai who follows a rigid code may find himself at odds with a militia of law neutral town guards if they disagree about whether he should surrender his katana.

A neutral good cleric may disagree with a neutral good ranger about whether an evil spirit should be bound into an ancient tree at the heart of a woodland shrine.?

You can't both argue that the alignment system isn't complex enough and then insist on interpreting it in the least complex manner possible. As long as alignments are broad categories and not a sort of choose-your-own-adventure sub-system for role-playing, then I really don't see what the problem is.

There comes a point where, interpreted broadly enough, any alignment can be justified to do almost anything. IMO, that's the point where alignment has clearly outlived its usefulness.

Sure the LN samurai might refuse to surrender his sword. The CN almost certainly will refuse too (defiance of authority). You can use similar justifications with the good/evil versions, and neutrals certainly aren't prohibited from taking lawful or chaotic actions, so there's your justification there.

After a bit of thought, I've come to the conclusion that I'd rather see alignment used as a DM's tool, than one for players.

Alignment is a useful shorthand for how a group of creatures might behave, and since it's up to the DM to interpret, you can't really have a "wrong" interpretation. That's in contrast to disagreements I've seen come up between players and DMs as to whether certain actions were in keeping with someone's alignment. Those rarely end well.

Alignment could also be useful as a campaign descriptor. We abandoned alignment a while back, but the DM will still sometimes say before a campaign, "This campaign is a good campaign" or "This is an evil campaign" or even "The events of this campaign are totally up to your characters to decide, but try to get along". That way, we know to create characters whose personalities accommodate the style of the campaign. A goody-goody doesn't really belong in a campaign where all of the PCs are flesh eating zombies, after all.

In general, what I think I'm getting at is that I find alignment too limited to serve as any kind of true guide for role playing. I prefer a good personality any day. Who cares whether the devious and sneaky ninja who is thoroughly devoted to his lord is lawful (because he's devoted to his lord) or chaotic (because he's an assassin who defies the laws of the land)? I'd rather know that he's an assassin willing to go to any lengths for his lord. One sentence of personality tells me more than CN or LE ever could.

Alignments as cosmic jerseys are a different matter, but one that doesn't seem all that popular based on my reading of this thread. Which strikes me as a bit odd, seeing as that was clearly the root of the alignment concept.
 

Almost all alignment disputes evaporate if you accept the fact that lots of different personalities and behaviors (some mutually contradictory) can fall under the banner of a single alignment.

A lawful neutral samurai who follows a rigid code may find himself at odds with a militia of law neutral town guards if they disagree about whether he should surrender his katana.

A neutral good cleric may disagree with a neutral good ranger about whether an evil spirit should be bound into an ancient tree at the heart of a woodland shrine.?

You can't both argue that the alignment system isn't complex enough and then insist on interpreting it in the least complex manner possible. As long as alignments are broad categories and not a sort of choose-your-own-adventure sub-system for role-playing, then I really don't see what the problem is.

If you want to have alignment, then I'd assume you want it to mean something. If you're then going to have to explain on a casse-by-case basis what different people of the same alignment would do in a particular situation, then I see no reason not to cut out the middle step. Just, explain how people react to a particular situation, and leave alignment out of it.
 

Alignments as cosmic jerseys are a different matter, but one that doesn't seem all that popular based on my reading of this thread. Which strikes me as a bit odd, seeing as that was clearly the root of the alignment concept.
Which worked in the 70s, but not in the 2000s. Today we have a much different approach to fiction than 40 years ago. Good vs. Evil worked in a cold war world, but is just stupid in the 21st century. With black and white thinking, you can't get anyone to take you serious anymore.
 

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