Rules and plot ideas request for a powerful item in a low level campaign

[Cyronax]

SPOILERS for my current campaign.... My players should stop reading now~! You know who you are......

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Hi I'm trying a plotline for my current campaign that will involve an Iron Flask. The party level, by the time that the flask makes its first appearance, will probably be 4th-6th level. They're still in their 1st adventure now (at ECL 1), so I'm planning for many sessions ahead.

Now granted, an iron flask's market value is high, but I'm treating it like an artifact IMC. I plan to have the flask's wielder be an mid level NPC (7th lvl "ninja" like) and may become the party's nemesis. The NPC won't be using the flask on the PCs directly, rather he is holding it in advance to entrap an outsider that he and party are racing to meet. He knows its a risky item btw....but for this particular creature he also will have one of his minions "soften" up the outsider Wil save with spells before he attempts anything.

Without going into too much more detail, though I can if necessary...

Here are my questions:
1) Is an Iron Flask too much at this level? This would be the most powerful magical item in the campaign...and its a risky item to use regardless of what level the wielder is. I am aware that it is a possibility that this item could end up in the hands of the players, (just beating you guys to that question ).

2) Is the Wil DC 19 for a creature to be entraped too low? It seems that most of the outsiders on the list for the iron flask would more than likely have passed their save and not have been captured. I was thinking of upping it a bit, or else have the DC modified by the wielder's Wisdom or Charisma bonus...(for the "ninja" NPC, Charisma would be his good mental mod.)

3) Now as to the term 'outsider.' My campaign world follows the Oriental Adventures rules somewhat and I consider some fey races, some dragons, and outsiders (including elementals) to be of the spirit subtype. The spirit subtype can overlap with any or all of those subtypes, but its a subtle distinction in my world...since the term spirit usually refers to supernatural beings.
Anyway, would the Iron Flask power as an item be really overblown if it could capture spirits as well?

Oh also, I've decided that the item will be EMPTY (and the NPC will know it). He was only given the flask so that he could trap a certain outsider and then transport it back to his master in another part of the campaign world.

Thanks in advance,
C.I.D.

 

[drnuncheon]

Sounds to me like you're using the item as a McGuffin and not as something the PCs are intended to get ahold of and use (in the way that many/most magic items are).

If that's the case, then don't worry about the power of the item. It could be a one-shot thing, designed to hold one particular spirit. The bonds of magic that hold the spirits in could weaken every time the ninja uses it. Don't be constrained by the iron flask description, use what's right for your game.

J

 

[Lord Pendragon]

1) Is an Iron Flask too much at this level? This would be the most powerful magical item in the campaign...and its a risky item to use regardless of what level the wielder is. I am aware that it is a possibility that this item could end up in the hands of the players, (just beating you guys to that question ).

If you expect that there's a possibility that the PCs might gain this item at 4-6th level, then yes, the item is too much. It's worth 170,000gp and a Major magic item. Way too powerful. If you don't anticipate that the players have any real chance of getting the item until 13th-level or so, but just want to introduce it (in the hands of the NPC) earlier, then no.

2) Is the Wil DC 19 for a creature to be entraped too low? It seems that most of the outsiders on the list for the iron flask would more than likely have passed their save and not have been captured. I was thinking of upping it a bit, or else have the DC modified by the wielder's Wisdom or Charisma bonus...(for the "ninja" NPC, Charisma would be his good mental mod.)

No, it's not too low. Once you entrap the creature, you have a powerful resource. The balance to that is the decent change that the entrapment will fail, and you'll have an angry outsider to deal with.

3) Now as to the term 'outsider.' My campaign world follows the Oriental Adventures rules somewhat and I consider some fey races, some dragons, and outsiders (including elementals) to be of the spirit subtype. The spirit subtype can overlap with any or all of those subtypes, but its a subtle distinction in my world...since the term spirit usually refers to supernatural beings.
Anyway, would the Iron Flask power as an item be really overblown if it could capture spirits as well?

Overblown is relative. It would certainly be more powerful if you included dragons and fey races along with Outsiders. How much more powerful depends on how often your PCs will encounter dragons and fey races in your world. And "overblown" depends on when you expect it'd be possible for the PCs to get a hold of the item and start using its powers.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Heh.

1st Edition game.

6thish level party.

Found a bottle. Sitting in a pentagram, in a sealed room, in a long-buried tomb in the desert.

Of course we opened it.

The Elder Efreet that appeared glared down at the magic-user holding the bottle.

"GIVE THAT TO ME," he said.

No! No! we all whispered frantically.

"Eep!" said the magic-user, and held the bottle up while simulataneously trying to shrink into his robe.

The Efreet took the bottle, threw it into the air, and obliterated it with some fire spell or other.

"FREE!" he exulted. "SINCE YOU DIDN'T USE THE BOTTLE TO COMMAND ME, I'LL LET YOU LIVE... FOR NOW..."

And that's how we loosed an Elder Efreet who started building an undead army to take over the world...

-Hyp.

 

[dren]

If you expect that there's a possibility that the PCs might gain this item at 4-6th level, then yes, the item is too much. It's worth 170,000gp and a Major magic item. Way too powerful. If you don't anticipate that the players have any real chance of getting the item until 13th-level or so, but just want to introduce it (in the hands of the NPC) earlier, then no.

Don't agree. If it's part of the plot, leave it in. But, and this a huge but, make sure the players know that they can't control it.
If they attempt to use it, especially on something nasty, they will probably get smoked. If they attempt to sell it, the merchant will probably not buy it from them at even close to fair market value or wil set up an ambush to acquire it. If they hide it on them some high level BBEG will come after them to get it. The item comes with a price better left unpaid.

So, if they do happen to get it, the best thing they can do with it is to hide it until they are better able to handle it, or give it to a church and have them deal with it. And this way, later on in the campaign, they know where it is and may be able to use it.

I certainly am with Lord Pendragon with emphasizing that the players preferably do not get their hands on it, but, you don't control the plot, the dice do. If it happens, deal with it. Or, better said, let the players deal with it.

dren
Game ON!

 

[Cyronax]

Thanks for the feedback all of you. I think that if I do end up using the flask (the plot is still up in the air), that I'll leave the item as is. I realized that my definition of 'spirit' can be refined to only include the elemental dragons from OA (wang lung, which the PCs will probably encounter) and not the dragons from the MM. That one little overlap satisfies me.....

I think I'll heed dren's advice, in that they will know how dangerous it is. In fact they might see the flask fail the NPC first hand....who knows.

Anyway, thanks for the advice all of you.
C.I.D.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Don't agree. If it's part of the plot, leave it in. But, and this a huge but, make sure the players know that they can't control it.
If they attempt to use it, especially on something nasty, they will probably get smoked. If they attempt to sell it, the merchant will probably not buy it from them at even close to fair market value or wil set up an ambush to acquire it. If they hide it on them some high level BBEG will come after them to get it. The item comes with a price better left unpaid.

Any plot that requires this kind of tactic is a bad one. It reminds me of the "key items" you'd find in a video game. Items that are powerful before you get them, but then just sit in your inventory afterward, unuseable, unsellable, undroppable, unbelievable. If you want the PCs to have it but not be able to use it, then you need to alter the item so that there's a decent rationale for it. Not just throw out some railroading and expect the PCs to jump on the tracks.