Rules Aren't Important

[Art Waring]

I blast it with my particle acceleration rifle. Now let's run back to the Transmogrifier Box...
Wow! Not having any rules makes this game easier than explaining quantum physics simply!

His boundless optimism and unique perspective are a blessing to humanity.

"Any model we make does not discribe the universe, it discribes what our brains are capable of saying at this time" -Rober Anton Wilson

I would recommend all of his books, but he has also written the foreward on some other exceptional books like Angel Tech from Antero Alli.

 

[Reynard]

It's not binary. There's still uncertainty and there's still the opportunity to use dice to resolve uncertain ththings.

So.you mean rules light and narrative. Cool.

But those are not "not rules."

 

[overgeeked]

So you mean rules light and narrative. Cool.

I mean treat the rules like the tools they are. Pick them up when necessary, leave them in the toolbox when not required, don't mistake the tools for unchangeable holy writ, and don't mistake the map for the territory. The rule-tool is an abstract device used to approximate some thing in the fiction. People focus way too much on the rule-tool-map and way too little on the fiction-setting-territory. The neat thing about abstract mechanics is we can simply change them when we need to. We're not beholden to using them. They're not good, right, correct, and perfect. They're convenient when needed and cumbersome when used unnecessarily. If a given rule doesn't work the way you want it to, toss it and make up a better one.

But those are not "not rules."

I never said no rules. But sure, you could absolutely play with no rules beyond Wheaton’s Law. Just like in your "lore isn't important" thread you're not implying that there shouldn't be any lore. Use whatever rule works best for that particular circumstance then put it back in the box. If you can think of a better rule (most referees and players can), then use that instead. Don't be beholden to what some far off designer thinks. Make and use the rules that work for you and your table.

 

[MGibster]

But, broadly speaking, the "rules" are just some stuff someone thought up at the moment. They probably aren't even particularly well thought out, even if designed by a famous game designer. You should absolutely feel free to change them to suit your game. Most game designers are even self-aware enough to put in variations of rule 0, giving you explicit permission to do so.

That's like telling me a recipe is just some stuff someone thought up at the moment. I suppose it might technically be true, but more practically speaking, someone tweaked and refined their original thought until they came up with something worthy of publication. And you can certainly make some changes to the recipe if you'd like, just make sure you know what you're doing. If you insist on subtituting honey for sugar, make sure you only use half as much honey as the recipe calls for in sugar otherwise you'll have some problems.

But it's always good to have that reminder. Go ahead and change the rules if they're not suiting your needs.

 

[aco175]

There is an ogre in the middle of the road.
I draw my sword and go kill him.
He swings his club and kills you first.
But I jump out of the way before he hits me and stab him.
Your stab does not kill him and he squishes your head with his club.
No way, the mage cast a spell and disintegrates him first.
Etc...

Sounds like 5-year-olds at play learning to play together. Might be ok from a story point of view, but the game now needs rules to decide who stabs first and how much damage everyone needs before you die. Rules on how to attack and how to cast spells.

 

[Blue]

Rules are what turn it into a game. Even if those rules are "try to match the storyteller's genre conventions in order to have a positive outcome".

If I swing a cardboard tube at my friend while making lightsaber sounds, we're having fun. But it's not a game. If she then dangles lifeless the arm I him her in, scoops up a cardboard tube in her non-dominant hand and swings at me (with the requisite lightsaber noise), we've now established some impromptu rules - get hit in a limb and lose the use of it. It's turning into a game.

Saying "the rules aren't important" goes one of two ways. Either what's happening it not a game -- it can be fun, like one person telling a story and others adding in. Or the rules are just hidden an the storyteller's head so they aren't obvious and shared. That can be a rewarding game, it can be a frustrating game. And potentially worse, it can be an inconsistent game.

I've played a card game where part of the rules are you can't discuss the rules and have to figure them out via play. But that doesn't mean there aren't rules. It just means you don't have access to them and need to learn them from observation.

This isn't a push for "we need heavy rules for everything, simulation is the only way to go". Part of rules for anything will always be how they are interpreted - in people's heads. Swinging cardboard tubes at each other can be a game.

For me, having a framework so everyone has a shared understanding, but not having much more than a framework that slows things down with rules of progressively less scope and/or importance, is also good. I don't need to have all of the corner cases mapped out. For others they do - or want a lot less formalized than that. That's all fine.

But don't mistake that for no rules, not if it's actually a game.

 

[CleverNickName]

TL;DR: games have rules, stories do not.

 

[overgeeked]

There is an ogre in the middle of the road.
I draw my sword and go kill him.
He swings his club and kills you first.
But I jump out of the way before he hits me and stab him.
Your stab does not kill him and he squishes your head with his club.
No way, the mage cast a spell and disintegrates him first.
Etc...

Sounds like 5-year-olds at play learning to play together.

Imagine that. An example you wrote specifically to sound like children playing make believe sounds like children playing make believe. You even included a fantasy version of "I shot you!" "No you didn't!"

Might be ok from a story point of view, but the game now needs rules to decide who stabs first and how much damage everyone needs before you die. Rules on how to attack and how to cast spells.

Sure. But what rules do you actually need? It sounds like you'd need at least a rule to determine whose statement becomes true in the fiction. That could be anything, really. A flip of a coin, a roll off, draw lots, draw cards...anything.

Referee: "There is an ogre in the middle of the road."

Player 1: "I draw my sword and go kill him."

Referee: "He swings his club and kills you first."

Now there are two statements in direct contradiction to each other. Roll to see who's statement is true. The player wins, and we continue...

Player 1: "I jump out of the way before he hits me and stab him."

Referee: "Your stab does not kill him and he squishes your head with his club."

Player 1: "No way..."

Again, two contradictory statements. Roll to see which is true. On and on.

No need for 400-page books giving hyper-detailed rules for everything.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Unless you feel they are.

But, broadly speaking, the "rules" are just some stuff someone thought up at the moment. They probably aren't even particularly well thought out, even if designed by a famous game designer. You should absolutely feel free to change them to suit your game. Most game designers are even self-aware enough to put in variations of rule 0, giving you explicit permission to do so.

Brought to you by every rules discussion thread ever...

So what you're saying is the rules ... the system ... it doesn't mat....

Oh, no.

WELCOME TO THE ALL-VALLEY KARATE DISCUSSION TOURNAMENT.

 

[overgeeked]

Saying "the rules aren't important" goes one of two ways. Either what's happening it not a game -- it can be fun, like one person telling a story and others adding in. Or the rules are just hidden an the storyteller's head so they aren't obvious and shared.

Or it is a game and the rules are discussed beforehand and generally invisible. See the invisible rulebooks link I posted earlier.