Rules Aren't Important

overgeeked

B/X Known World
So what you're saying is the rules ... the system ... it doesn't mat....

Oh, no.
No, I'm actually saying the opposite. System matters quite a lot. So much so that it's a problem. What starts as a smart and fashionable smoking jacket quickly turns into a straight jacket.

Systems focus and limit the imagination. But the imagination is limitless. Mechanics are limited and limiting. The heavier the mechanics the more limiting they are. RPGs exist in a weird Venn diagram space between limitless imagination and limited mechanics. To even approach representing a real person in a real situation (definitely my goal, immersion, verisimilitude, etc), you need either rules for everything which needlessly bog the game down and take far too long to resolve or you need very limited rules that cover most if not all the ground. We don't need more mechanics than basic task/conflict resolution. Yet, for some weird reason the hobby has bought into the idea that we must have lots of bespoke mechanics to play, when we really don't. I'm not interested in a boardgame with a bit of theater on top. I want immersion and verisimilitude. And to me, the best way to get that is to recognize that the rules are unnecessary limitations and to get the rules out of the way.

I’ll quote Jonathan Tweet and Robin Laws from Over the Edge 2nd Edition:

“And why the simple mechanics? Two reasons: First, complex mechanics invariably channel and limit the imagination; second, my neurons have better things to do than calculate numbers and refer to charts all evening. Complex mechanics, in their effort to tell you what you can do, generally do a fair job of implying what you cannot do.”

And this from Matt Mercer:

“This is a testament to why I love playing with newer players. There’s a cycle I’m noticing, through the years of playing. Like a player cycle. When you first begin, you don’t know the boundaries that a lot of experienced players expect or understand. The more you know the game, the more you tend to, more often than not, stay within the confines of what the game establishes as the rules. When you’re new to it, you don’t really understand that so you take wider swings, you make stranger choices. You really kind of push against those boundaries because you don’t know where the boundaries are. You’re like a kid learning to how to walk for the first time and bumping into the furniture. And it’s wonderful, and eventually you kind of fall into those lines and not always, but sometimes you find yourself kind of subconsciously sticking, coloring within the lines because you’ve learned to do so. Then over time you begin to realize you’ve been doing that. And then you go back to being weird again. And that’s my other favorite point. It’s new players or extremely experienced players who have come back to reclaim their ‘stupid’ youth as players.”
 

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Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
No, I'm actually saying the opposite. System matters quite a lot. So much so that it's a problem. What starts as a smart and fashionable smoking jacket quickly turns into a straight jacket.

I don't think we are in disagreement. As you remember, I am a big fan (and proponent) of FKR and rules-lite systems. I would go so far as to say that the differentiating issue is that for me, what tends to happen is that people put too much faith in rules-revisions. But much like the animating force that drove the FK divide from KS, the problem isn't the fit of the rules to the fiction, it's the rules themselves.

In the end, rules don't matter because whatever the rules are, people can (and will) either play as they wish (master of rules) or let the rules play them. But that's me. I'm sure you'll get .... feedback ... from others. :)
 


overgeeked

B/X Known World
I don't think we are in disagreement. As you remember, I am a big fan (and proponent) of FKR and rules-lite systems. I would go so far as to say that the differentiating issue is that for me, what tends to happen is that people put too much faith in rules-revisions. But much like the animating force that drove the FK divide from KS, the problem isn't the fit of the rules to the fiction, it's the rules themselves.
I'd say it was both the fit and the rules themselves. But yes, this mirrors that divide. Or rather it is that divide, only repeated.
In the end, rules don't matter because whatever the rules are, people can (and will) either play as they wish (master of rules) or let the rules play them. But that's me. I'm sure you'll get .... feedback ... from others. :)
Yeah, you can't have an opinion in public without taking a beating getting feedback.
Stories do have rules... as any good editor or author can talk about.
Exactly.
When stories break their own rules, they become not-very-good-stories.
Or they become classics.
 

Imagine that. An example you wrote specifically to sound like children playing make believe sounds like children playing make believe. You even included a fantasy version of "I shot you!" "No you didn't!"

Sure. But what rules do you actually need? It sounds like you'd need at least a rule to determine whose statement becomes true in the fiction. That could be anything, really. A flip of a coin, a roll off, draw lots, draw cards...anything.

Referee: "There is an ogre in the middle of the road."

Player 1: "I draw my sword and go kill him."

Referee: "He swings his club and kills you first."


Now there are two statements in direct contradiction to each other. Roll to see who's statement is true. The player wins, and we continue...

Player 1: "I jump out of the way before he hits me and stab him."

Referee: "Your stab does not kill him and he squishes your head with his club."

Player 1: "No way..."


Again, two contradictory statements. Roll to see which is true. On and on.

No need for 400-page books giving hyper-detailed rules for everything.
Roll to see which is true?

Dullest encounter ever.
 


The shared imagined space is generated so someone’s (either the designer of the adventure/situation, or the GM, or the player) will can be enacted upon it. Its the bare minimum necessary to play a TTRPG game at all (CRPG play space isn’t imagined…its virtual…physical games play space is physical).

Rules exist so players can move from envisioning > embodying (in the imagined space) > operationalizing their own particular will upon the imagined space/situation in a way that isn’t mostly or wholly alien from the way human systems (neurological, endocrine, musculoskeletal) work here on Earth.

Without rules, its just the GM or adventure/situation designer’s will that is being operationalized. Without functional rules, its either the GM’s will being operationalized or its no one’s will being operationalized (because the game grinds to a halt as players predictably try to derive/negotiate the means necessary, rules(!), to envision and operationalize their will in a way that isn’t alien to them).
 


If the rules are being ignored then we're not really playing a game. If we're not really playing a game I am not interested. If the GM is unilaterally ignoring the rules they might as well write their novel and be done with it.

I totally get you.

But it might still qualify as a game…a puzzle/mystery-solving game where the player’s role is to (a) uncover what has already been predestined/written via artfully triggering GM exposition while (b) bringing theatrics and color to the process of (a).

But, having a fair grip on your tastes by now from your posts, this is not the game (assuming it is one…it might not be, typically if (a) above isn’t even a thing) you signed up for (and/or it might be a total crap game)!
 

I totally get you.

But it might still qualify as a game…a puzzle/mystery-solving game where the player’s role is to (a) uncover what has already been predestined/written via artfully triggering GM exposition while (b) bringing theatrics and color to the process of (a).

But, having a fair grip on your tastes by now from your posts, this is not the game (assuming it is one…it might not be, typically if (a) above isn’t even a thing) you signed up for!
The type of game you're describing still has rules however non-explicit they might be. If I want to solve a mystery without gameplay I'll read some old Dorothy Sayers or Ellery Queen or something. If I want to feel as though I'm trying to solve a mystery with a cheating GM there's always Dame Agatha.
 
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