"Rules: Effective Character Levels and Challenge Ratings"

[Anubis]

UK, do you think a Great Wyrm White Dragon is ECL 47/CR 31?

I'm trying to tweak my system a bit, and that's the number I came up with after the tweaking. The one thing that seems to sway things the most is the integrated class level modifier . . .

At first, I think that CR 31 is giving the thing way too much credit, but after careful consideration, I think a Great Wyrm White Dragon played CORRECTLY may well be CR 31. I would, however, raise the SR of all dragons, however. Maybe a function of ECL or CR?

I saw the other debate about CR and SR, and I'm starting to think that maybe SR SHOULD be based on CR and not ECL or class levels, mainly because the way the gains get so slim at later levels to where you need to gain 8 or 16 or even 32 levels per CR. With gains like that, SR is simply worthless at higher levels, to the point where it doesn't make any difference whatsoever, and to where it shouldn't even be considered in ECL. If that is done, however, it is no longer possible to determine the ECL of SR, as it is determined AFTER CR is calculated as opposed to before. Maybe that would be for the best, however. What do you think?

 

[Anubis]

Re: Re: Examples?

First Balor tactical error right there.

Why is that? Implosion is a very powerful ability, ya' know.

Its an at will ability. Theres technically no reason why it should ever be 'off'.

"At will" is NOT the same as "always on". Using it still takes a standard action AND has a duration, a 1 round/level duration in this case. So no, it would not always be on.

+4 to AC and +4 to saves.

As I asked, how would that have made much of a difference?

One non-critical hit and a single horrid wilting felled it, I am dubious.

110 hit points doesn't last very long, especially against Horrid Wilting.

How would a 20th-level character have fared differently under the same circumstances?

Would've ripped him apart like nothing!

Depends how you play the Balor. Obviously a 20th-level party should win, but I don't think its so clear cut with a 16th-level party.

In a normal encounter situation, I think the Balor has only a 20-25% chance to beat a Level 16 party, if that.

I think you have to use a modicum of purpose for NPCs otherwise PCs are always going to 'roll over them'

That's what you think!

 

[Anubis]

Okay, I've been following the SR debate for a while, and I commented on it a couple of posts ago, but I think I finally have a suitable solution to the problem!

First off, as someone else suggested, caster level checks should be based on a character's CR, not total level. This includes caster level checks for EVERYTHING, including SR, Dispel Magic, etc. (This does not change the damage of spells. Caster level is still caster level, I'm ONLY changing caster level CHECKS.)

The only exception to the previous rule is caster level of a spell going against Dispel Magic. Determine the caster level of a spell going against Dispel Magic the same I propose determining the caster level for caster level checks. In other words, if a spell was cast by a character with a caster level of 40, the effective caster level for purposes of Dispel Magic would instead be 30.

You should not, however, determine SR itself based on CR, at least not directly. If you did, calculating the ECL modifier of SR would be impossible. Instead, it is better to determine SR on something like hit dice or something else. Just find a way that works. For instance, give a Great Wyrm White Dragon an SR of 46 instead of 27, which would be HD+10.

Doing this, the Great Wyrm White Dragon would be bumped up to ECL 49, or CR 32. With a Level 50 (CR 32) party, which would find this a normal challenge, the spellcasters would make all caster level CHECKS at 32, even though they would actually be Level 50. In this way, the SR is still a factor, and all things are considered!

For multiclassing spellcasters, take the CR of the spellcasting class alone, regardless of when those levels were gained. For instand, a Ftr40/Wiz40 would be considered caster level 30 for Dispel Magic and SR purposes. For a Ftr20/Wiz60, the caster level is 35. For a Ftr50/Wiz10, the caster level is 10.

Anyway, I believe this fixes the SR utility PERFECTLY.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello mate!

UK, do you think a Great Wyrm White Dragon is ECL 47/CR 31?

No.

I'm trying to tweak my system a bit, and that's the number I came up with after the tweaking. The one thing that seems to sway things the most is the integrated class level modifier . . .

I'm using +1/3 for that.

At first, I think that CR 31 is giving the thing way too much credit, but after careful consideration, I think a Great Wyrm White Dragon played CORRECTLY may well be CR 31.

The higher you ascend in CR the less impact 'playing it correctly' will have on CR (ie. it probably has a notable effect on ECL rather than CR if you know what I mean).

I would, however, raise the SR of all dragons, however. Maybe a function of ECL or CR?

For their CRs dragons do indeed have very low SR.

I saw the other debate about CR and SR, and I'm starting to think that maybe SR SHOULD be based on CR and not ECL or class levels, mainly because the way the gains get so slim at later levels to where you need to gain 8 or 16 or even 32 levels per CR. With gains like that, SR is simply worthless at higher levels, to the point where it doesn't make any difference whatsoever, and to where it shouldn't even be considered in ECL. If that is done, however, it is no longer possible to determine the ECL of SR, as it is determined AFTER CR is calculated as opposed to before. Maybe that would be for the best, however. What do you think?

Just make an educated guess as to the CR and then assign SR.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: Re: Re: Examples?

Hello again mate!

Why is that? Implosion is a very powerful ability, ya' know.

He had three attackers closing to melee - at best Implosion will affect one before they attack.

"At will" is NOT the same as "always on". Using it still takes a standard action AND has a duration, a 1 round/level duration in this case. So no, it would not always be on.

Why would the Balor be worried about duration - it can reactivate the effect at will.

As I asked, how would that have made much of a difference?

Better save vs. the horrid wilting which it seems to have failed.

110 hit points doesn't last very long, especially against Horrid Wilting.

16d8 averages 72, or 36 with a save.

Would've ripped him apart like nothing!

Exactly - so if a 20th-level character would have fared no better than a Balor then why couldn't the Balor be CR20.

In a normal encounter situation, I think the Balor has only a 20-25% chance to beat a Level 16 party, if that.

Depends how you run it.

That's what you think!

 

[Anubis]

Update - October 2, 2002:

I posted some major changes today after running the numbers. The system still seems to slightly overestimate some outsiders due to immunities, but other than that, everything now seems to balance MUCH better.

At some point in the near future, I will begin the lengthy and tiresome process of posting ALL of the new ECLs and CRs for ALL of the monsters in the books I own, starting with the Monster Manual. Other books that I own with monsters that will be converted include Monsters of Faerun and the Epic Level Handbook. With any luck, the list will help those without the patience to actually do the conversions themselves.

Anyway, that's all for now.

 

[Crothian]

I think you might be trying to make science out of art. I don't think you can give everything a certain price as certain abilites work really well together.

 

[Anubis]

I think you might be trying to make science out of art. I don't think you can give everything a certain price as certain abilites work really well together.

That is absolutely true. At lower levels, these numbers don't work very well, as I've found out. At higher levels, this system is, for lack of a better word, perfect. At low levels, however, it breaks down.

Funny . . . Exactly the opposite of the core system, which breaks down at about Level 15 . . . The CR 19 Solar is best proof of that, considering the Solar could rip apart a Level 19 party with practically no effort whatsoever . . .

We're trying to figure out a system that works at all levels, but I'm starting to realize slowly that it just isn't possible.

 

[Crothian]

That is absolutely true. At lower levels, these numbers don't work very well, as I've found out. At higher levels, this system is, for lack of a better word, perfect. At low levels, however, it breaks down.

Funny . . . Exactly the opposite of the core system, which breaks down at about Level 15 . . . The CR 19 Solar is best proof of that, considering the Solar could rip apart a Level 19 party with practically no effort whatsoever . . .

We're trying to figure out a system that works at all levels, but I'm starting to realize slowly that it just isn't possible.

I can see that. I think CR breaks down for creatures with many, many abilities or abilities that outweigh their HD. Liks a 8HD creature having 18th level caster ability.

Personally, I didn't see the current system break down till level 25, and that was before Epic. I extended all the classes in the PHB.