Rules vs. Story oriented game...

[Cergorach]

The subject of this discussion is a Rules vs. Story oriented game, and the relevance of the game system used.

I'll start with a short introduction of how these ideas evolved in my head (you can call it Cergorach's Headroom).

Not so long ago we (the group i play with) finished a rather long D&D campaign (one that started about 6 months before 3E was released), it wasn't really finished, everyone just had enough of the campaign. One of the reasons was that we where high level (20isch) and every combat became a long and tedious mental excercise, we had seen it all and done it all. We tried to start a new game (1st level) but after two sessions i dropped out as a player, i wasn't enjoying myself enough to 'justify' the 9 hours of game time i spent every three weeks or so. My friends asked why didn't i enjoy myself anymore? That's where this 'rant' comes in...

D&D3E is a great game, in a lot of ways it's better than D&D2E. For one it's a lot clearer in the rules department and probably also a lot better balanced. This was done by using a lot of rules, and i must say it was done very well. But it's greatest strength is also it's greatest weakness, the rules. There are now so many rules and statistics for D&D3E that it's quickly becomming more a rollplaying game than a roleplaying game. Over the last couple of years the shelf space for D&D3E has become larger and larger. We played in the Forgotten Realms setting and at the end of the campaign i had about 30 D&D3E books that held relevant rule information, sure i could have done it with the 3 basic game books (just as i have done in the beginning), but i'm also not using my old 486DX to write this message (call it progress). New 'setting' books now dedicate abou 40% of their page count on rules and statistics. Can i say rule and statistic overkill?

Of course it's always up to the people playing the game to make it either a roll or role playing game, but the rules used are still a very big temptation. Especially for the players it's easy to fall into the pitt of what's the strongest combo for the character played, or rules laywering. I've had the players of my game dictate the rules of the D&D sessions, that isn't funny, especially when you want to play D&D, and saying 'screw it' isn't an option.

D&D3E is a very good game for the beginning gamemaster because everything is explained in all the detailed glory. It's a bit like HeroQuest (a somewhat older boardgame by MB and GW), playing the DM is just like playing a character, only with more characters. It's not that i suddenly dislike D&D3E, most certainly NOT! But i do find that the game system hinders a game that's more about the story instead of the rules. Those same rule details hinder the DM when most of (if not all) the players know the rules in detail.

These are of course my own 'findings', but i'm curious whether other people are also finding the D&D3E rules starting to hinder them in their creative storytelling. Have people solved these issues within the D&D3E rules, and if so, how so. Or have people migrated to other game systems (fat change that they are still hanging around a D&D3e board).

I've played some White Wolf Storyteller games in the past (Mage, Vampire, Werewolf) and my experience with that system is that it's less complex than D&D3E and also allows for greater creativity in the rules department on the part of the DM (rolling a Firearm + Intelligence for figuring out how to put the sniper rifle together for example). Now i'm sure that there are other 'simple' game systems out there, but are there any OGL (or similar liscence) systems that have a simpler rule system?

 

[Ranger REG]

No, it does not hinder me at all. I always think the rules should be a tool for the GM's storytelling.

Take the Intimidate skill, for example. It's a Cha-based skill, but I often felt that brutes like Half-Orc should intimidate as well, despite its low Charisma. So, I allow anyone who perform a feat of strength like smashing a table into or bending a bar in front of the person he wishes to intimidate to apply his Strength bonus to such a skill.

Finding new uses for the skills presented in d20 is a creative challenge, not a creative hindrance.

 

[Gospog]

Cergorach,

I agree that D&D can be seen as a little rules-heavy. However, you seem to be cognizant of the fact that the DM is the final arbiter of what rules are used and what rules are not. That is a good thing.

You pointed to D&D's massive rules set as one of it's strengths, in that it lends the game flexibility. But in playing one long campaign of D&D, you have failed to exploit that strength!

Flexibility! I love the D20 system. And I think that there are several other systems out there that are "better" in terms of encouraging roleplaying and creativity, and many more that are far more simple. But D20 is FLEXIBLE! And my group puts that flexibility to the test.

We have used D20 to play D&D, Wierd Wars, Star Wars, Pulp Heroes, Omega World, Shadow Chasers, Judge Dredd, Resident Evil, Frankenstein 3000, Mecha Crusade, Call of Cthullu, Mutants & Masterminds and probably a few other games I've forgotten. And I've had to teach the players the rules ONCE.

So while my book shelves do get crowded with 5,000 new Prestige Classes and feats, they also grow crowded with new GAMES. But just one system, my friend. D20. I'll sacrifice a little speed of play for that.

Alternately, if you're just burnt on D20 (and that's cool), go take a look at Savage Worlds from Pinnacle. It looks like it's pretty fast-playing, encourages creativity, and I think you'd be able to tap a lot of your D20 stuff as source material.

Whatever you choose to do, remember to have fun! Good luck to you.

(edited for clarity)

 

[Cergorach]

Let me clearify a few points, although i've been the main DM for a long time within my group, due to time constraints and the rather enormous task of creating sound high level challenges that are 'just right' for the party, we started rotating DMs. I think that was the biggest mistake i ever made, not that some of the others made a decent effort, but because the campaign became everyone's 'right', everyone had a stake in it as a DM. As a result, everyone became a rules 'expert' and would butt in at the wrong moments.

The D20 system is certainly flexible and appropriate to many different types of generes. The problem with D&D i think is that everyone (in my party atleast) knows the rules a bit TOO much.

I do think i currently have a D&D burnout, but i'm already working on a new campaign (set around 1400-1500 mythic europe), whether that will use D20 rules or something else i'll see. What i do know is that i'll keep a tight rain on what the players know (both about the world, as well as the rules).

While i'm typing this, i'm thinking that using a different system might be a good idea to 'reset' the players expectations. But i'll see...

So anyone else got any thoughts on this subject?

 

[ShawnLStroud]

Rules? Story?

I fight this battle almost every day.

In the end, I run a role-playing game because it's a creative outlet for me. I like to allow my players to do cool stuff; and I'm willing to bend/break the rules in order to let them accomplish greatness. In my mind, the rules are simply the group's way to fairly adjudicate the shared story we're all playing.

So, in essence, we all become the story tellers by describing what's done. The rules and the dice simply confirm or refute our statements, which we then fold into the story. So then it's good. I try to reward players that play along with my silliness and game plot with more experience. I try to have immersive experiences in the game, and I try to run at least one combat a night (if it makes sense in the game), because we play as a diversion -- and let's face it, rp combat is fun because nobody actually gets hurt (just the sheets of paper our characters are written on).

I'm not sure if this answers your question. But I thought I'd throw it out there for general consumption.

 

[s/LaSH]

Rules spoil the creative mind. A surfeit of supplementary material will create the impression that there is a rule for that somewhere, although it might not be quite the way you'd do it. My approach is, Screw it, I don't want to buy some new product when I could have plenty of fun working it out on my own. Sure, someone else may have done it, but I don't care.

Do you see where I'm coming from?

As a side note, my Twilight system is built (and being rebuilt) to offer a relatively small, relatively comprehensive package. It's 99 pages long at present (the online version is shorter and less complete), and that includes a d20 system conversion guide that fails to use half the Twilight system's abilities. Brag brag brag, the point is it's supposed to be a one stop shop for flexible rules - the need for supplements should be virtually nil, as the core rules aim to do everything.

So, having long since glimpsed the point of this thread, I decided to do something about it, and now I've got something that can run Drizzt versus Wolverine versus Darth Vader right there in the core rules. Hopefully the system isn't so complex that it detracts attention from role-playing... although the comparatively small size does lead me to believe that it will.

That's... quite a side note, isn't it?

 

[bwgwl]

The problem with D&D i think is that everyone (in my party atleast) knows the rules a bit TOO much.

just because they know what the rules are in the books doesn't mean they know what the rules are in your campaign. it's the GM's prerogative to change rules he doesn't like or doesn't think fit his campaign.

for the record, i don't find D&D limiting my creativity at all. on the other hand, i rarely use anything outside the 3 core rulebooks. sure, i've got a shelf full of d20 material -- i just end up not using most of it in the game...

on a more positive note, if you're looking for a fast and easy system to run a game in that isn't planning on undergoing rules-bloat, take a look at Pinnacle's Savage Worlds. it's a pretty cool system -- easy to pick up and capable of doing pretty much anything d20 can do, albeit differently.

 

[Lugh]

Personally, I have to disagree with this sentiment. I've played D&D for years, and 3E is the first D&D system to actually encourage, within the ruleset, an approach other than bash the creature over the head. You now have feats, which add flavor and finesse to a number of options. You have a wide variety of prestige classes and multi-class options to hone your character into exactly (give-or-take) the shape you want it to be.

In 2nd Ed., you could claim to be a master archer. The best in the world. But, generally, it was hard to back that up. You were a 20th level fighter, just like all the other 20th level fighters. Probably a better Dex, and NWP's in Bowyer and Fletcher. That's about it. In 3rd Ed., no two 20th level fighters are remotely the same (unless they intentionally try to be). The rules now allow you to effect the world the way your character's background says you should.

The most important distinction, though, is skills. Skills now allow you to have a hard and fast idea of just how good your character is outside of combat. Most importantly, how good your character is in social situations. Sure, your 20th level fighter may be able to take down a dragon single-handedly. But, the scheming mistress of the king can manipulate you without breaking a sweat. And, the character stays consistent. The fighter who spends 8 hours a day in practice doesn't suddenly become a courtier because the player can switch gears.

In short, while the d20 system is rules-heavy, it supports role-playing MORE than previous editions. This is because it gives a simple, no-nonsense, draw-the-line system of what a character can and cannot do in ANY given situation. Most importantly, it does this regardless of the abilities of the player. This, more than anything else, encourages good role-playing.

 

[Cergorach]

In short, while the d20 system is rules-heavy, it supports role-playing MORE than previous editions. This is because it gives a simple, no-nonsense, draw-the-line system of what a character can and cannot do in ANY given situation. Most importantly, it does this regardless of the abilities of the player. This, more than anything else, encourages good role-playing.

You gave a good list of the benefits of 3E over 2E, and i agree that those are major improvements. But good rules do not good roleplaying make. I agree that rules that support character concepts are a plus on rules that do not, but that's not the issue. The issue i'm trying to get at is that now the amount of clear cut rules can divert from the roleplaying aspect from the game.

We had a master archer in the game, and though the rules didn't give him every possible plus (+), it was still played as a master archer. Now though a big part of the 3E game is accumulating the plusses (trough feats, prestige classes, and every other conceivable combo), instead of focussing on character development. For example, choosing a prestige class should be a big roleplaying event, not the optimum choice...

In short: Lots of rules can shift the focus of the game to the rules.

 

[Yellow Sign]

While "alot" of rules can bog down a game, a clear set of good rules can in my opinion help roleplay! As a GM if you have a good set of rules to govern what your players can do and they kinda know what to expect then the rules should take a backseat to the action. If you don't have a good set of rules then you have to keep making judgement calls and have debates on rules with players.

Now as a GM you should have a good reign on your players and what you want to include in your game. While there are "tons" of extra feats, prestige classes, spells, and such out there, you have to put your foot down and not let your players run rough shod over you. You can run a perfectly great game just by using the core books if you feel overwhelmed by extra rules.

If your players are not focusing on character development then I say it's the players and the GM's fault and not the set of rules. If you only throw a dungeon crawl with a several combats every time you play then when do they get a chance to "develop" there characters. You have to give them a chance to roleplay! (I am not saying that you do that but it sounds like it from your discription)