Ruling on the Black Hole Arrow

[James Lockart]

Take one Portable Hole, place inside one Bag of Holding, get a 10foot wide black hole that sends you elsewhere. Do you get the same effect scale with the size of the hole and bag? Trying to figure this one out before one of the players decides that he should be able to buy tiny portable holes and bags at reduced prices for arrows and i have to make a ruling.

 

[Saagael]

Well if you don't want to do it you can dissuade him with some problems: Setting up this contraption is hard and could potential backfire on him. Who's he buying all these bags of holding and portable holes from? After using it once, all his enemies catch on to the tactic and use it on him.

As to your question, there aren't any rules, so its up to you. I say no, he can't buy miniature bags of holding/portable holes. That goes under the Bag of Rats rule of thumb.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Portable Holes and Bags of Holding don't work that way in 4e. As was revealed in the previous thread, you have a problem player.

Tell him he doesn't know what will happen, it's never been done before, then have some pre-readied scenarios, perhaps putting them directly into your notes so you have the numbers ready. Some positive to the opponents, some negative to the PCs, and some negative to the opponents, but use whatever you feel is right when the scenario is set off.

Also, miniaturization is expensive... let him spend all that residuum!

 

[Ryujin]

Portable Holes and Bags of Holding don't work that way in 4e. As was revealed in the previous thread, you have a problem player.

Tell him he doesn't know what will happen, it's never been done before, then have some pre-readied scenarios, perhaps putting them directly into your notes so you have the numbers ready. Some positive to the opponents, some negative to the PCs, and some negative to the opponents, but use whatever you feel is right when the scenario is set off.

Also, miniaturization is expensive... let him spend all that residuum!

This.

I would have him pay an exorbitant price for magical research in order to come up with the appropriate magical formula that can be used in a Create Item ritual, then ultimately say that it's done easily with a permanent Deep Pockets ritual that creates a level 5 item with 5 pockets, each of which can hold up to 50 pounds of weight / 5 cubic feet.

In other words a bag of holding, broken up into pieces. The mechanic for many magic items is to take a ritual of a given level, make it permanent, and charge the appropriate amount for an item of that level. The cost isn't for the size of the item, it's for the power level of the magic required to create it. You simply can't manipulate space to a significant degree until level 5.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I wish I knew what level this mage was.

How can he even afford the Portable Hole and other research materials?

 

[Larrin]

even IF we assume one could make a mini-black hole:

How is he attaching the arrows to the black hole...the arrow should normally just get sucked in, in fact there is no real way to propel these holes, anything thing you touch to them will get sucked in; arrows, string, and most likely you. Any forces you send at it to push the hole would likely just go into it, like wind blowing into an open window. About the best you could hope to do is make little traps that people have to walk into....At which point you should use every previously stated argument to avoid having to deal with minefields of black holes.

 

[Ryujin]

Ah, now I see. Did I misunderstand the concept here? He plans to use them as a weapon of mass destruction / insta-kill? I just couldn't fathom that sort of behaviour. As (Psi)SeveredHead said, they just don't work that way in 4e. The game is also designed for balance, so there are no insta-kills. When people find loopholes that create unbalance, Wizards works hard to close them. Don't allow a player, who is trying to get one over on you, break the game.

How you need to rule this is that it's BadWrongFun and say no bloody way is he able to do it.

 

[Saagael]

even IF we assume one could make a mini-black hole:

How is he attaching the arrows to the black hole...the arrow should normally just get sucked in, in fact there is no real way to propel these holes, anything thing you touch to them will get sucked in; arrows, string, and most likely you. Any forces you send at it to push the hole would likely just go into it, like wind blowing into an open window. About the best you could hope to do is make little traps that people have to walk into....At which point you should use every previously stated argument to avoid having to deal with minefields of black holes.

Damn engineers ruining our games!

 

[GreyICE]

Don't use 3E stupid in a 4E game?

Seriously, I thought we lost that little piece of idiocy.

 

[jefgorbach]

Saagael's concept seems reasonable ... however fail to see the Weapon-of-Mass-Destruction facet since RAW states -ONLY- the bag and hole are actually destroyed in the resulting dimensional implosion, while everything else within a 10ft radius is planeshifted to a random location on the Astral Plane. Rudely inconvenient for most folks but far better than being actually killed.