Runestaff via UMD?

[Andras]

Can a character, in my case a Rogue, activate a Runestaff via UMD? A Runestaff normally requires the sacrifice of a spell slot, but the example in the PHB has Lidda using a chalice as if she spent a turn undead attempt.

Thanks

 

[Ranes]

I would suggest that your rogue should have to emulate a class feature (ie emulate having a spell slot of the level the staff normally requires), and possibly emulate an ability score (in order to cast the specific spell from the staff), if the rogue's relevant ability score isn't already high enough.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Can a character, in my case a Rogue, activate a Runestaff via UMD? A Runestaff normally requires the sacrifice of a spell slot, but the example in the PHB has Lidda using a chalice as if she spent a turn undead attempt.

No, you cannot; that example is in error.

Lidda could UMD a chalice that gave a bonus to someone who could turn undead (e.g., "If someone who can Turn Undead drinks a vial of holy water from the chalice, they gain a +2 sacred bonus to [blah]"), but could not actually expend any turn undead attempts to power the chalice (e.g., "By expending 1 daily usage of Turn Undead, a user may [blah]").

 

[Ranes]

No, you cannot; that example is in error.

I don't know why I bother.

Seriously, can you explain why UMD can't be used on the staff? The way I saw it was that the staff provides the actual spell; all the PC needs to do is emulate the class feature of having an appropriately high spell slot (and possibly the ability score for being able to cast a spell of that level).

Anyway, I'd XP you but, well, you know the dialogue box I'm talking about.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Heh heh.

UMD allows you to emulate having specific class abilities - e.g., it allows you to fake having a spell on your class's spell list (and also having a spell list, sometimes!) in order to trigger a wand.

It does not allow you to actually use those abilities. A bard, for instance, could make a UMD check to fake having Divine Power on his bard spell list in order to activate a wand of the same, but it would not let him take it as a spell known when leveling up.

That's why the original example is bad* - if the chalice worked for anyone who could channel positive energy, then you could fake having that ability and let the chalice do its thing. If, instead, you actually have to channel energy to get it to work, then you don't have that ability.

Consider a sorceror with a high UMD check and such a staff. Why would he ever expend his own spellslots in order to power it, when he could instead just make UMD attempts to do it "for free"? (Since, if a Rogue can do it, it obviously doesn't really require expending a spell slot, since the Rogue doesn't have any to expend.)

* I want to say that they got rid of the example in the 3.5 version or in the second printing, or something, but that was years ago and I cannot remember it off the top of my head. And, obviously, I am AFB at the moment.

 

[Andras]

Do you have a published document from WOTC saying that example is in error? I have looked at the FAQ and the 3.5 PHB errata and neither changes text under UMD.

The example in the 3.5 PHB says Lidda emulates having TU to use a chalice that turns water into holy water via positive energy. The text also says that you activate devices as if you had the class ability. This is completely separate from Wand and Staves which have a different entry under Use Wand.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Do you have a published document from WOTC saying that example is in error? I have looked at the FAQ and the 3.5 PHB errata and neither changes text under UMD.

Not that I've found, but I haven't really searched for it; but, more importantly, the example contradicts the rules text in the skill description:

Emulate a Class Feature

Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).

So - an item that gives a bonus to anyone wielding it who has the Turn Undead class feature? Valid use for UMD.

An item that works whenever you actually expend a Turn Undead attempt? Not a valid use for UMD.

 

[Andras]

Not that I've found, but I haven't really searched for it; but, more importantly, the example contradicts the rules text in the skill description:



So - an item that gives a bonus to anyone wielding it who has the Turn Undead class feature? Valid use for UMD.

An item that works whenever you actually expend a Turn Undead attempt? Not a valid use for UMD.

The SRD leaves out the examples in the 3.5 rulebook that contradict your interpretation.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Rules Text >> Example

Just like:

Feat Description >> Feat Table

I mean, there was a rules error in the write-up of example play in one of the various d20 rulesets. It didn't make the rules later on wrong.

 

[Andras]

Explain why there is a separate entry for Use Wand if Emulate Class Feature does the same thing in your interpretation.