Running a battle...?

[turnip]

I think that the current DM of the game I'm in and I are going to kinda round-robin a bit; every 3-4 levels or so we'll switch (same world but different campaign) so we both get a chance to DM and PC.
Anyway...I was wondering how best to throw the characters into a large-scale battle, and I decided that running it as a skill challenge would be the best way of doing so.
This is what I have so far:
Maybe make it a 12/6 challenge, with
Athletics, Acrobatics, Endurance, Intimidate, Streetwise, Heal, Insight, Perception, and History checks allowed (to give every type of player his due). Ath, Acr, End, Int for the defender/strikers in the shield wall (push-of-pike type stuff), Str, Heal, Ins, Per, Hist (tactics, aiding, info, ingenuity type stuff) for the controllers and leaders in the second line.

With each success, I'd allow for the lines of battle to "gain ground," each failure would loose ground AND a healing surge. I'd tie in the surrounding combatants with random percentage die rolls in each turn with modifiers based on success/fail of the PCs for the same effects (warriors taking heart from the prowess and example of the PCs, or loosing the will to fight as the PCs take losses).

With 12 success before 6 failures, the battle is won, 6 failures means the line is broken and the forces routed (with consequences to the campaign). Perhaps then the PC have to additionally fight a small encounter as the retreat, as well?

What do you think? Also, what level PC would you expect to find participating as such?
This would be my first time DM'ing, and I think this would occur in the second run of my campaign (4-6 level or so), but I have this disgusting desire to plan ahead...sorry. Anything I'm missing?

 

[Quickleaf]

Welcome to ENWorld and DMing! Your skill challenge battle is definitely one way to run it. Though I'll guarantee you the players will want to use their powers and go after high value targets. I like how you've kept open the possibility that the player's side could lose. When I've run large scale battles in 4e I set aside the whole session for them. In my case the PCs were heroic warriors but not leaders, so they didn't get to make large scale tactical choices. I used a modified skill challenge broken up by turning point conflicts like rescue the captain, take out the trebuchet, deal with surrendered or defecting troops, hold ground until reinforcements arrive, dealing with a bad order, protect the stupid charging prince, etc. This was a really satisfying way to run the battles. Of course you want to appeal to your different players. For example we had a bard in our last game so during the battle I had a group of chevaliers fleeing, and the bard was able to inspire them to turn around and enter the fray once more.

 

[turnip]

Thanks!

Those are excellent ideas; I may have to snag them and fit them into the story! I especially like the way it breaks up the challenge into exciting, bite-sized pieces - I seem to remember something similar in an RPG once...maybe a Final Fantasy...on a train...gah...I can't recall.
Anyway, that seems like a great way to simulate the lulls/breaks in a battle, as well, as most battles were 5-10 minutes of intense push followed by regrouping/ancillary fighting etc...great ideas.

 

[BobTheNob]

Back in the 3.0 days I once tried a scenario where players had to hold a fort against invaders. I developed some mass combat rules to cope with the scenario. In hindsight, it wasn't such a success. It was difficult to run, slow and little of that "reward for play" factor that keeps people coming back to RPG's

The lesson I learned from that is that D&D is far better suited to small to medium skirmishes (what it was really designed to do) and the next time I run a large scale battle, I would design more as a sort of "decision tree" approach to move players from encounter to encounter, keeping the battle represented (from the parties perspective) as a series of smaller skirmishes.

My temptation would not be to have them in the "leadership" of one side.

That said, I did like th OP's approach. Creative use of the skill challenge system. I approve.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

My recommendation is along the lines of Quickleaf's post.

design the war as a large scale skill challenge in which the PCs play the part of skirmishers trying to control key points or succeed at missions. You can have set-peice combat encounters at appropriate places.

In the War of the Burning Sky game, there is a massive battle between two armies. The PCs get the option of running some special manuevers such as sapper attacks against the enemy war machines, preparing the battlefield, etc. The main battle handed the PCs a section of the field to control in which they fought against lines of warriors.. then they had the option to try to get behind enemy lines and ambush the commander.

The key, IMHO, is to ensure that the players get a chance to make strategic decisions but leave the combat encounters at the tactical level. Also, have the PCs have a chance to use thier strengths.. if you have a Bard, then supporting the morale of home team is a good thing to do. Etc..

The 3.5 book 'Heroes of Battle' actually did a pretty decent job of laying out running a way as a 'dungeon'. I recommend skimming it for ideas.

Generally, anytime you have to build a sub-system the enjoyment of running it has to outweight play-testing and teaching how to play...

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

IMO, you should also make combat an option (with the usual potential penalties; eg loss of healing surges from damage, possibly a lost daily).

I haven't tried this, but would love to hear a battle report; you could use lots of minions.

Heroes of Battle suggested having a bunch of encounters on the battlefield that are "separate" from the main battle (in the sense that random NPC soldiers don't wander onto the small battleground to do battle with PCs, but just have a regular encounter) although of course each encounter would be battlefield-flavored. Winning an encounter puts the PCs' side ahead.

The book suggested an encounter flowchart, something like:
Encounter 1: Artillery. Take out the heavy catapults. Naturally, such a target is well-defended by relatively elite troops. (Say, in 4e terms, a bunch of minions plus a warlord-type, not to mention reinforcements would come after X rounds.) The catapult captain and crew wouldn't actually fight in the battle; attacking them would delay their use of catapults against the main army. (The PCs would be too close to face the catapults directly.)
Encounter 2: Lead a flank attack. The enemy has protected their flanks with some sort of nasty trap (eg spikes hidden in the undergrowth)...
Encounter the Last: Take on the enemy general. He's a warlord-type with a bodyguard of elite troops (probably not literally elite). If the PCs' side is winning by this point, they might have arranged their baggage wagons into a defensive circle and their archers would enjoy lots of cover.

But even if you don't want to do fights, I would suggest making each "step" of the skill challenge mean something. (So step 3 might be taking on the catapults. Allow players to use whatever skill they think is reasonable for taking them out. Eg stealth to sneak up on them and kill the crew, History/Tactics to find a way to disrupt them, etc.) Each step would have a similar battlefield flavor effect.

Just my opinion.

 

[turnip]

Thanks, guys. These are all excellent suggestions. I really like the idea of a connected string of small but very "weighted" (i.e. consequence-laden) encounters.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game Official Home Page - Archive

The above link is for a whole series of excellent articles on Skill Challenges. DDI is required.

Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game Official Home Page - Article (Life During Wartime, Part 2)

The second link there is specifically about building a complex skill challenge to simulate a large scale battle. You could just pull the whole thing and reflavor it to suit your campaign (say, undead instead of hobgoblins, if that would be appropriate) or use it as is. Either way though, it gives some great examples of the various ways you could use a skill challenge to prepare for, and ultimately participate in, a large battle.