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D&D 5E Running away on intimidation

jgsugden

Legend
If Group B is controlled by the DM, the DM is the only one that can, or should, answer. These are calls that a DM makes and the players accept, even if the call surprises them.

If the call surprises you as a player, feel free to say, "Really? That's not what I expected." Don't say, "Bogus, Dude. That totally wouldn't happen. That makes no sense! They should stop!" The DM's job is to control the actions of the world around the players - and until they decide to fire him, they should trust him (or her) to do it and support the DM's decisions.

After all, D&D is a game of improvisation and the first rule of improv is....
 

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iserith

Magic Wordsmith
I just wanted to discuss what you guys think would be realistic behavior in such a situation and if there's no clear answer, what rolls would be involved to decide. I intentionally left the situation as vague as possible to prevent anyone to be influenced by that.

Though I got all the answers I needed now, so if you really want to know here is the real situation I ran into:
1. PCs fought 4 Hobgoblin at a range battle.
2. Eventually only one hobgoblin was left.
3. The Cleric used thaumaturgy to make the sound of him moving stronger and shouted the hobgoblin should surrender.
4. I decided that it's very unlikely for the Hobgoblin to surrender, but the intimidation was very effective (good intimidation roll), so I decided the Hobgoblin drops his weapon and starts running away immediately.
5. I was kind of expecting the group to either try to catch the Hobgoblin (which I'd have resolved as Athletics contest to see who has more stamina) or let him go away. Most gave up on following him, but the Fighter said he throws his Javelin in front of the feet of the Hobgoblin and says "Surrender and we will let you live" and the Wizard said he shoots arrows at him until he stops or dies.

In the case of a hobgoblin, surrender would not be an option in my view. Attempts to get the hobgoblin to stop fleeing might work, but a hobgoblin might well choose death before surrender since death in battle assures its place in the afterlife in the Legion of Maglubiyet (MM, page 186). I would adjudicate the fighter player's stated goal and approach as a failure, no roll. Surrender? No. Stand and fight? Maybe.
 

Rushmik

First Post
Personally, I would run until running was not an option, and only then surrender.

As a DM myself, I often find myself asking my players "does your character say that?" when my players start saying "why is such and such happening" because they forget they have the ability to speak in character to influence NPC decision making. As others have said in this thread, if a player yells "throw down your arms and surrender" with a good social skill roll, I'd generally let them have it.

EDIT: I just saw your specific scenario and I think your hobgoblin was acting realistically. When has a vermin race been taken prisoner and everything went alright? No, I'll take my chances and book it!
 
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S

Sunseeker

Guest
If I were successfully intimidated into running away from my enemy, and my enemy kept shooting at me, I'd probably run away FASTER. The reasonable conclusion is that my enemy seeks my death.

I wouldn't give this to the players, their tactics caused the enemy to run away, and they cannot catch the enemy. They will not get information from them by continuing to shoot at them.
 

If Group B is controlled by the DM, the DM is the only one that can, or should, answer. These are calls that a DM makes and the players accept, even if the call surprises them.

If the call surprises you as a player, feel free to say, "Really? That's not what I expected." Don't say, "Bogus, Dude. That totally wouldn't happen. That makes no sense! They should stop!" The DM's job is to control the actions of the world around the players - and until they decide to fire him, they should trust him (or her) to do it and support the DM's decisions.

After all, D&D is a game of improvisation and the first rule of improv is....
Yeah of course, but when you are the DM yourself, you still want to make the monsters act the most realistic way than just deciding whatever you like. ;-)
(And on top of that, there will be thoughts like "Even if it's most realistic, won't my players feel frustrated by my decision?")
 

Li Shenron

Legend
I just wanted to discuss what you guys think would be realistic behavior in such a situation and if there's no clear answer, what rolls would be involved to decide. I intentionally left the situation as vague as possible to prevent anyone to be influenced by that.

Many behaviours are realistic. Just because doing the right thing (whatever it is) is better than doing the wrong thing, it doesn't mean everyone will do it. Therefore I wouldn't even worry that much about the fugitives taking the 'best' decisions, because it doesn't always happen.

Dice rolls are there also to help the DM make a decision when she is in fact undecided. Which rolls to best use in this case... I can see a few options at least, none of which are especially creative, but the point is just to let the dice decide in your place, so no need to complicate the process. Probably I would go with this one:

- Intimidation check vs Wisdom check

An Intimidation check simply represents the attempt of making someone do what you want, same as Persuasion and Deception (but using different "methods"). So if the PCs succeed, the fugitives do whatever the PCs want them to, otherwise they don't. I would use a traditional Wisdom check on the fugitives' part to represent "willpower", i.e. stand on your previous decision, but there's a blurred line between Wisdom and Charisma when it comes to representing "willpower". Sometimes, an opposite Charisma checks feels more appropriate to represent a "You will do as I say"/"No I won't" type of contest. Here I'd use the Wisdom because the fugitives are not actively countering the intimidation but rather just trying to resist it.

Important note: this is not about the fugitives figuring out what is best for them! Just to decide if they comply to your will or not. You could also have an Intelligence(Insight) or Wisdom(Insight) check vs static DC to make the most convenient decision, or vs Intimidation if what the PCs want the fugitives to do is different from the fugitive's most convenient.

Keep in mind that the situation is different depending on which side are the PCs on, because you cannot (and should never) override the players' decisions.

If the PCs were the fugitive, I would do mostly the same checks, but the (hidden!) outcome would not force the PCs action, instead it would (strongly) affect the narration. For example, if the PCs lose the contest, I'd emphasize the narration so that they clearly get the feeling that they will get caught or killed while fleeing, even if not true!

In the more general situation, a monster good at Intimidation will be often described in my games in a way that suggests it is significantly more powerful than it actually is, possibly causing the PCs to make mistakes (e.g. unnecessarily depleting their combat resources, avoiding an otherwise not so challenging fight, complicating their way through a quest etc...), but certainly without forcing them to obey such monster's wills.
 

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
[MENTION=6801585]Rya.Reisender[/MENTION]: I don't think realism is really the best goal to pursue, whereas consistency is in my view. Consistently playing hobgoblins as creatures who would rather die than surrender allows the players to make decisions based on this fact. I also recommend telegraphing this trait via their interaction with the PCs so that telling the fighter's player that his demand for surrender was completely ignored isn't a total surprise. Context established up to that point would show why the hobgoblin refuses outright, no roll.
 

Xeviat

Hero
When players want to do something in combat other than an attack or a spell, which are nicely quantified, I ask them what it is they are trying to accomplish. Sometimes that won't be the result, but usually it will be; if that's not going to be the result at all, I will let them know before I make them spend the action. I came to this a while ago when doing otherwise made my players less likely to fall back on skills in combat.
 

devincutler

Explorer
Intimidation:

You can run but you can't hide! If you surrender you will live. If you flee, we will hunt you down and kill you and anyone who gives you shelter....painfully. No matter how long it takes.
 

Saeviomagy

Adventurer
In the case of a hobgoblin, surrender would not be an option in my view. Attempts to get the hobgoblin to stop fleeing might work, but a hobgoblin might well choose death before surrender since death in battle assures its place in the afterlife in the Legion of Maglubiyet (MM, page 186). I would adjudicate the fighter player's stated goal and approach as a failure, no roll. Surrender? No. Stand and fight? Maybe.

Not fearing death is not equivalent to having nothing to live for. Otherwise hobgoblins wouldn't train and use tactics in order to win battles.

At the very least, allowing your foes to capture you when you are unlikely to be able to escape or significantly injure them is tactically superior to throwing your life away. There are opportunities for sowing false information, gathering information and potentially escaping.

Finally if dying in battle is the prerequisite for a good afterlife, you can threaten to NOT kill him in battle. "If you don't surrender, then we will knock you unconscious and then leave you locked in a cage until you starve to death, denying you a good afterlife".
 

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