Running "Never Miss" Traps

[Felnar]

how exactly are traps with the "never miss" descriptor supposed to be run?

are PCs automatically aware a trap has been sprung when the onset time starts?
are clues required? (e.g. see ceiling lowering, visible gas entering room, or clockwork sounds)
are spot/listen checks required?

This question comes up specifically from this trap in the Age of Worms campaign
[sblock]
this trap is found in the adventure "The Whispering Cairn" area 7i (indigo)
False Elevator Trap
mechanical; location trigger (inside); auto reset; ceiling moves down(2d6 crush); onset delay (2 round); search dc15
The encounter text also states: "Two rounds after a character stands within the cylinder the doors close and the contraption utterly crushes everything within it"

aside from all the surrounding clues that the elevator is not safe (crushed bones inside), once a character has gone in, by the rules should anything make them feel like they should get out?
if not, i might change the trap to a reflex save to get out in time
[/sblock]
i imagine not everyone has run Age of Worms yet, so please use "spoiler" or "sblock" tags in replies regarding this specific trap

 

[frankthedm]

how exactly are traps with the "never miss" descriptor supposed to be run?

They activate and thats that!

are PCs automatically aware a trap has been sprung when the onset time starts?

Nope

are clues required?

Nope

are spot/listen checks required?

Nope.

That sample trap is fine. the DC is even low enough non rogues can find it.

 

[Felnar]

ok, thanks Frank
no requirement for warning can make some nasty low CR traps

anyone know of rules for adjusting a traps CR based on clues/warnings given?
tho, ad hoc probably works fine

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

...

anyone know of rules for adjusting a traps CR based on clues/warnings given?
tho, ad hoc probably works fine

Perhaps the use of another appropriate skill could be substituted for the Search skill.
[sblock]So, in the sample trap, everyone in the room can make a free make a listen check each round during the onset delay to notice the trap at DC 15.[/sblock]
Also, it might be generous of a DM to allow Non-Rogues to use this method to find traps with a DC of 20+. (or whatever the rogue only cutoff is)

However, the rules are silent on how these traps are to be run, so a DM ruling is a must here. Take into account how you mentally picture the trap working and go from there. If there are any clues the PCs are capable of perceiving, it would be fair to give them (after appropriate skill checks are made) to the PCs; If you were a player, you wouldn't want to be caught in a never-miss, no warning 'death' trap.

 

[irdeggman]

ok, thanks Frank
no requirement for warning can make some nasty low CR traps

anyone know of rules for adjusting a traps CR based on clues/warnings given?
tho, ad hoc probably works fine

There is a later trap in the same adventure with a "lowered" CR due to the warnings available (pg 27). Use it for comparision, I'm pretty sure it is a eye-ball thing though.

 

[Felnar]

There is a later trap in the same adventure with a "lowered" CR due to the warnings available (pg 27). Use it for comparision, I'm pretty sure it is a eye-ball thing though.

ya, that was giving be troubles because both traps have clues that would make characters wary and provoke search checks to be made, but only one got lower CR because of it
and when i looked at the later trap...
[sblock]i quickly got confusing trying to calculate what its CR shouldve been and gave up. its 3 traps affecting the same area (hold person trap, control winds trap, and 40ft pit trap), so that should be a CR 4, a CR 6, and a CR 1? (did i CR the 40ft pit correctly?) Now what is the EL of this set of traps? Table 3-1 in the DMG says it should be EL 7+, but i'm not sure i calculated all that correctly. If the ad hoc for those clues is -3EL, the first trap surely deserved at least -1
[/sblock]

 

[irdeggman]

ya, that was giving be troubles because both traps have clues that would make characters wary and provoke search checks to be made, but only one got lower CR because of it
and when i looked at the later trap...
[sblock]i quickly got confusing trying to calculate what its CR shouldve been and gave up. its 3 traps affecting the same area (hold person trap, control winds trap, and 40ft pit trap), so that should be a CR 4, a CR 6, and a CR 1? (did i CR the 40ft pit correctly?) Now what is the EL of this set of traps? Table 3-1 in the DMG says it should be EL 7+, but i'm not sure i calculated all that correctly. If the ad hoc for those clues is -3EL, the first trap surely deserved at least -1
[/sblock]

Why are you bothering to attempt to calculate the CR of the traps in the first place?
I mean they are specifically listed in the adventure - and that is based on any circumstance modifiers the authors felt were there.

IMO they work pretty well too considering the effects and circumstances for each one.

 

[Felnar]

Why are you bothering to attempt to calculate the CR of the traps in the first place?
I mean they are specifically listed in the adventure - and that is based on any circumstance modifiers the authors felt were there.

IMO they work pretty well too considering the effects and circumstances for each one.

i will be building other traps in the future, and having examples of ad hoc adjustments could help me gauge my own ad hoc adjustments

and since ad hoc adjustments arent random, shouldnt similar circumstances result in very similar ad hoc adjustments? I see the circumstances around these two traps as very similar, while the authors difference in EL adjustments between these traps is very large. This leads me to believe there is an error in my calculation or an error in the trap EL presented in the adventure.

 

[irdeggman]

Try going to Table 3-13 and building your traps based on that and not the "encounter" Table (3-1).

Each "feature" of a trap adds (or subtracts) to the CR of the trap.

And Table 3-14 (Highest level spell - not total number of spells involved)

Then look at each trap and ad-hoc them.

The reasons for the difference between the ad-hoc adjustments are on pg 27 (of the adventure) but need some "reading" to see why they are different.