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<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 8108984" data-attributes="member: 16814"><p>Firstly, a game that uses imagination is not very good defense -- it's essentially agreeing that there are things that have to be imagined around to make sense. I argue that you can both have a good imagination AND have the adventure not provide too many points you have to imagine your way around. I'd rather points you imagine with.</p><p></p><p>Secondly, sure, I know that the book isn't scripture and I haven't made any argument that it is so. It's obvious you can change it -- part of my arguments with others is that this expectation that you have to change it is a poor one, but that's premised on change being something that happens. So, yeah, of course it's not scripture. This isn't an argument that it could be better and have fewer points where you have to change it to make it work or make sense.</p><p></p><p>Finally, the argument that some people will run it with no alteration and have a blast in no way makes my criticism invalid or lesser. It's an appeal to popularity, essentially, in that you're claiming that this will be popular in a certain way so the argument there are valid criticism fails. Popularity has nothing to do with valid criticism. And, I seriously doubt "many" will run it unaltered and have a blast. I mean, there's already the argument that it's obvious that WotC adventures are for experienced GMs because they require so much additional work! I don't think that's a good thing, either, but I can't really argue that it's how it currently is.</p><p></p><p>Well, for one, I have never said it's not a finished product. It clearly is finished -- it was published. And, I've been very clear that I understand how the issues I'm criticizing happen -- I've been on the other side of a production deadline and know that review/edit is a trade-off process. None of that invalidates my criticism that you should do the work to make sure the premise holds water against a high school education and that the adventure flow is such that it helps GMs, not cause the problems they have to work around. I like WotC. I think they do a pretty good job. I also think that their adventures are their weakest products, by and large, and that the quality of them is spotty. And, I can point to the thriving aftermarket for "fixing XYZ" products, threads, and blogs for this clearly being an issue. That many of those fixing threads/posts/products tend to identify the same pain points is also a true statement. </p><p></p><p>I've already said my piece on how it could be better, but a quick recap is to address the two year long, no sun winter conditions with something, anything, that explains how that's not already most people dead or left. It offend my high school learning, and absent any attempt to even lampshade it, it harms my suspension of disbelief enough on the "why do you need heroes" axis. The pacing through Chapter 1 is spotty -- I don't like run around quests to get you acquainted with towns when the rest of the adventure is largely going to ignore this after the large mechanical thing. And, the throughline to Chapter 2 is rough -- this could have been smoothed out, but it's hard to do with what's actually in the adventure. I'd have much preferred to see the harder questions be tied into the worsening conditions more tightly, but it's far too late for that. So, yeah, the failure here for me is the failure to deliver on the promise of a brutal winter caused by a vengeful god. Sure, you have to go fight some things and find the thing to thwart the god, but the winter part is really just a weak background instead of a main character. The "why do I need to stop this winter if two years hasn't been that big of a deal?" question kinda derails the thing for me. Can I fix this? Absolutely, I can, and I've both proposed that solution AND liked many other provided solutions. But, and here's the thing for me, after I did that I'd still have an adventure that doesn't really care that much about that premise. The cold and weather events in this adventure are pretty tame, and I want ferocious. So, sure, I can address the initial problem with the premise, but I can't really fix the rest without a heavy rewrite, and I'm not going to purchase that when I can just do my own version. Which I'll tee up for after my current campaign, because I really like the idea of a frozen adventure.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 8108984, member: 16814"] Firstly, a game that uses imagination is not very good defense -- it's essentially agreeing that there are things that have to be imagined around to make sense. I argue that you can both have a good imagination AND have the adventure not provide too many points you have to imagine your way around. I'd rather points you imagine with. Secondly, sure, I know that the book isn't scripture and I haven't made any argument that it is so. It's obvious you can change it -- part of my arguments with others is that this expectation that you have to change it is a poor one, but that's premised on change being something that happens. So, yeah, of course it's not scripture. This isn't an argument that it could be better and have fewer points where you have to change it to make it work or make sense. Finally, the argument that some people will run it with no alteration and have a blast in no way makes my criticism invalid or lesser. It's an appeal to popularity, essentially, in that you're claiming that this will be popular in a certain way so the argument there are valid criticism fails. Popularity has nothing to do with valid criticism. And, I seriously doubt "many" will run it unaltered and have a blast. I mean, there's already the argument that it's obvious that WotC adventures are for experienced GMs because they require so much additional work! I don't think that's a good thing, either, but I can't really argue that it's how it currently is. Well, for one, I have never said it's not a finished product. It clearly is finished -- it was published. And, I've been very clear that I understand how the issues I'm criticizing happen -- I've been on the other side of a production deadline and know that review/edit is a trade-off process. None of that invalidates my criticism that you should do the work to make sure the premise holds water against a high school education and that the adventure flow is such that it helps GMs, not cause the problems they have to work around. I like WotC. I think they do a pretty good job. I also think that their adventures are their weakest products, by and large, and that the quality of them is spotty. And, I can point to the thriving aftermarket for "fixing XYZ" products, threads, and blogs for this clearly being an issue. That many of those fixing threads/posts/products tend to identify the same pain points is also a true statement. I've already said my piece on how it could be better, but a quick recap is to address the two year long, no sun winter conditions with something, anything, that explains how that's not already most people dead or left. It offend my high school learning, and absent any attempt to even lampshade it, it harms my suspension of disbelief enough on the "why do you need heroes" axis. The pacing through Chapter 1 is spotty -- I don't like run around quests to get you acquainted with towns when the rest of the adventure is largely going to ignore this after the large mechanical thing. And, the throughline to Chapter 2 is rough -- this could have been smoothed out, but it's hard to do with what's actually in the adventure. I'd have much preferred to see the harder questions be tied into the worsening conditions more tightly, but it's far too late for that. So, yeah, the failure here for me is the failure to deliver on the promise of a brutal winter caused by a vengeful god. Sure, you have to go fight some things and find the thing to thwart the god, but the winter part is really just a weak background instead of a main character. The "why do I need to stop this winter if two years hasn't been that big of a deal?" question kinda derails the thing for me. Can I fix this? Absolutely, I can, and I've both proposed that solution AND liked many other provided solutions. But, and here's the thing for me, after I did that I'd still have an adventure that doesn't really care that much about that premise. The cold and weather events in this adventure are pretty tame, and I want ferocious. So, sure, I can address the initial problem with the premise, but I can't really fix the rest without a heavy rewrite, and I'm not going to purchase that when I can just do my own version. Which I'll tee up for after my current campaign, because I really like the idea of a frozen adventure. [/QUOTE]
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