Running the Well of Demons in Thunderspire Labrynth -Warning Spoilers!

[Nytmare]

I'm prepping for the Well for this Friday. I normally do a lot of editing and re-tweaking, but aside from the kinda janky skill challenge, was anyone able to discern what the huge swath of blood starting in a puddle in front of the altar, and ending a good 100 some odd feet away in an empty closet was supposed to be?

I hate when they drop in stuff like this without bothering to put in any kind of explanation. Even if the explanation is just "the puddle of blood mysteriously stops just inside the doors of the broom closet. The adventurers will never know why!" I can never tell if it's just sloppy mystery dressing, or if there's something important in the book that I keep missing.

 

[Lancelot]

Love 4e, played all of KotS (enjoyed it), all of Thunderspire, and some of Pyramid of Shadows (still ongoing).

While there were parts of Thunderspire I thought were okay, I absolutely loathed the Trial. Here was my experience:

• Party of Five - avenger, cleric, bard, warden, fighter. Appropriate level, normal point-buy, somewhat under-equipped (thanks to the low number of magic items available in the WotC adventure path).
• Skill Challenge was incredibly frustrating. DCs were way too high until we pointed out to the DM that maybe he should be using errata'ed values. Our bard was failing Diplomacy checks with +15 skill and reasonable rolls. Charisma-based skills seemed to be useless (1-2 successes only, which seemed strange for an interaction challenge where we were trying to befriend someone). Instead, we were being asked to "prove our mettle" by flexing (Athletics) and showing arcane knowledge (Arcana). Seemed very arbitrary.
• Chamber with mirrors/teleports was fine. Seemed easy, albeit a little scary at times. Good level of tension after one of our PCs "vanished".
• Chamber with minotaur statues was a bloodbath - literally. We were cut to ribbons. Difficult to move through terrain, and the evistros were doing far too much damage. Each round, one or more PCs were dropping or being bloodied... and we had limited capability to strike back. Admittedly, we made the horrible mistake of trying to get the objectives and get out - rather than killing everything first, then escaping. But it wasn't even clear to us until "too late" exactly what opposition we were facing.
• The pillar room was just grindy. Again, evistros are *nasty* opponents at that level. They were teaming up 2-3 strong on single PCs, and virtually auto-hitting them with their attack bonuses. And, from a PC perspective, we had to dish out 600-odd damage to kill all the demons with one 6th level striker...
• The guardian, by contrast was a cake-walk. Seriously... a 200-hp dragon that can do about 20% of the damage of 600-hp-worth of demons? Hugely anticlimactic.

So, it was a mix of a very poorly-designed skill challenge... ludicrously challenging bloodbaths with 100's of hp of damage flying around... a railroaded "collect-all-the-objects" quest... and an anticlimactic boss monster.

It's the first time in many years that I've felt quite that frustrated as a player.

 

[Jhaelen]

I can never tell if it's just sloppy mystery dressing, or if there's something important in the book that I keep missing.

I don't think you're missing anything. Things like this bother me, as well.

Take the example mini-adventure in the DMG1: There is this encounter with the rolling boulder that doesn't make any sense: A boulder rolling around along a rectangular path for all eternity once it gets started by rolling down a ramp. Yeah, right.

I know I shouldn't overthink stuff like this and just enjoy the show but this is just the kind of thing that keeps me from enjoying the majority of 'cool' action movies. If to experience the 'cool' I have to turn off my brain, I'll pass.

There _are_ action movies that also manage to make sense, so it's not as if it couldn't be done.

Anyway, back on topic: Contrary to most, although I think Thunderspire is one of the better WotC adventure modules, I really disliked the Well (and also the final encounter area). Especially, this thing about everything resetting itself if the party leaves the area to take an extended rest.

I usually loathe the comparison but that's the kind of design that might be acceptable for a video-game but not for a pen & paper rpg.

When I DM the adventure, I'll omit the final two encounter areas. I'd rather expand the duergar fortress and/or insert a smaller standalone delve or mini-adventure.

 

[Nebulous]

The Well of Demons (as DM) was one of my favorite and most memorable of all the encounters in Thunderspire Laybrinth. In fact, the players went there TWICE.

I'll explain.

Their first mission to the Well is to find Sister Linora who has been sold to the gnolls as a sacrifice to Yeenoghu. Linora is a friend of some of the PCs and they feel very obliged to rescue her (after all, she is from Winterhaven and has helped them in the past).

The first encounter with the tentacle monster and the chokers went well. I described the thing as buckling under the flagstone like a wave, and then spiked tentacles flailing out at everyone. The PCs pushed through to the hyena dens and kept fighting more gnolls and eventually the gorilla-demon that shows up. This was challenging but not too bad. I think we had five 6th level PCs.

They find the Book that will open the way to the Inner Sanctum, but they don't know what it is yet.

Then they meet the three ghosts.

Personally, i think WotC skill challenges really suck so i mostly glazed over this encounter and roleplayed it without rolling dice. The cool stuff was coming up next and i didn't want to waste time with a dumb SC.

The Mirror Room proves to be very scary but nothing terrible happens in the end, except for a gnoll trapped in the oubilette who is briefly released and then sent right back .

Before they enter the Blood Room they find a sixth party member to join them, so now there are six 6th level PCs (it was a minotaur warrior in stasis). As for the blood room, it was devastating. One PC died, another nearly died, and others were bloodied almost the entire encounter. They weren't sure of what to do at first and by the time they understood all the traps were sprung. The blood demons were tenacious bastards but it was ultimately the poison blood that killed the warlord, he drowned in it while unconscious.

So the PCs are beat up pretty bad, but they're under a deadline to rescue Sister Linora! She is going to be sacrificed and the Well of Demons will be rededicated from Baphomet to Yeenoghu who will become the new ruler (a fat imp of Demogorgon told them all of this immediately after the Blood Room).

By now they have found three of the items needed to enter the Inner Sanctum and lack only the Bell...which is in the Pillar Room. This started out well enough, with the evistros getting pushed into pillars and hacked down, but then the bigger demon arrives on the scene and things go downhill quickly (i replaced it with some lurker from the MM2).

They manage to escape with the Bell but the wizard is slain by the big demon and his body is pulled into a pillar. No one even saw him die.

So in the first venture to the Well they lost two characters and did not even bother trying to open the Sanctum and fight the Guardian.

They cut their losses and ran and let Sister Linora die. They couldn't save her (mission....Failed).

So, the next session they find out that Paldemar has a business deal with the gnoll priest and that the gnoll priest has a Silver Key that will lead straight to Paldemar's abode. Between that detail and wanting some payback for their slain friends, the heroes go back to the well for the second time.

But the Guardian has been released and it waiting in the front foyer, and this led to a very fun dragon fight along with over a dozen gnolls as well. Now that the Well of Demons has been rededicated to Yeenoghu many of the traps that were there for Baphomet and his petitioners have been disabled or altered. In fact, the heroes don't even need the Mask, Bell, Blade and Tome anymore.

But the central sphere of Annhilation is spinning around the central course, and the gnolls quickly learn that the PCs are back. Enemies swarm out of the final chamber and the big battle ends right outside the door to the Inner Sanctum. No one died this time, but it still featured several close calls. Ultimately the heroes defeat everyone, loot the treasure, and take the key to find Paldemar's Tower of Mystery.

 

[Nebulous]

I normally do a lot of editing and re-tweaking, but aside from the kinda janky skill challenge, was anyone able to discern what the huge swath of blood starting in a puddle in front of the altar, and ending a good 100 some odd feet away in an empty closet was supposed to be?

I hate when they drop in stuff like this without bothering to put in any kind of explanation. Even if the explanation is just "the puddle of blood mysteriously stops just inside the doors of the broom closet. The adventurers will never know why!" I can never tell if it's just sloppy mystery dressing, or if there's something important in the book that I keep missing.

I had the ghosts allude to the fact that it was blood from their corpses (still fresh) that had been dragged around by the Guardian. Later, the blood faded after the ghosts vanished. But i agree, the adventure could have used a line or two to detail that. God, i loved that map of the Well though. I built a little sphere of annihilation and had it running around the track (it even backtracked a few times and caught some PCs and NPCs in a bad position)

 

[Goonalan]

Going from memory here so be kind, DM'ed this approx. 6 months ago-

Skill Challenge, as you say lacked personality- I remember there was a Dwarf and a some kind of Wizard, was the other guy cut in half or something.

Basically had the Dwarf and the Wizard get in the parties way, attempt to physically restrain them (obviously that wouldn't really work but the players went with it). These two called out the parties wizard and (2) dwarves and started bad-mouthing them, the mad dwarf getting very physical-

"yah sunburned top-siders, wouldn't know one end of a spade from the other, call yourself a Dwarf- how tall are you boy, I didn't realise they stacked chippings that high etc."

Result Dwarven Priest of Moradin passes all skill checks, doesn't rise to the bait. Rock (Dwarven Fighter- real Tank) fails every skill challenge (terrible dice rolls) and damn-near loses the whole challenge on his own.

The parties Eladrin Mage remains cool and calm, aloof, as the ghostly Wizard calls into question his ability to weave any significant magic, Eladrin drops a few encounter powers and Arcana checks 30-35 consistently, the ghostly mage is soon satisfied.

The other ghost is the quiet one who only gets involved after his two compatriots have insulted the PCs thoroughly, asks a few more questions for the finale of the Skill Challenge- who are you, why are you here, what do you hope to achieve- Diplomacy and social skills to the fore. Once he's ascertained the PCs are the good guys he tells them what he knows and wishes them well.

In my campaign the Well of Demons also involved a further skill challenge to turn it into a testing ground for adherents of Kord- which I wove into the chat with the ghostly figures also.

The party leader is a Fighter devotee of Kord.

Some of the rooms were real nasty, as one of the previous replies stated the oubliette chamber saw our Rogue join the Gnoll for a while. He managed to survive by amusing the Gnoll with an impromptu magic show (sleight of hand), while performing a song-and-dance number, it's the way we roll- don't ask. I seem to remember that entire chamber involving PCs creeping arpund with their eyes shut, bumping into stuff, yelling friend or foe and then lashing out- took a good while to play through and for the first thirty minutes was very enjoyable, less so after 45 minutes.

The chamber with Blood in it was also pretty bad when the minotaur statues got flaying, however the Rogue managed to leap from a statue onto a Demon's head and then on again to recover the blade, it's know his basic weapon. I think in fact the Rogue never got wet at any point using other PCs as stepping stones for his return journey- he's not universally liked our Rogue.

The actual Well of Demons with the dragon was a major disappointment, particularly as the PCs were waiting for the Dragon to emerge, or at least two of them- both Fighters were.

Dragon ended up marked and unable to get away very quickly (first round), there after it was just a dull take down fight with the other PCs arriving to join in the fray, and yes I tried the stun and the darkness spheres etc but the Fighters just marked it all to hell and kept on hitting when they needed to.

Whereas the last fight with Scarmaker was a doozy, particularly as throughout the fight Scarmaker is consecrating the well of demons to Yeenoghu while Cathal is trying to consecrate the place to Kord- first to five successes, with the PCs as free actions having to hell out prayers, truisms, exhortations etc to attempt to turn the tide and prevent Scarmaker getting his way.

Lots and lots of good tactical play, dailies spent etc. and still the PCs only just win through- I beefed up this final encounter, adding at least 3 levels to each creature in the room, I seem to remember.

Very tough, PCs thought this was the hardest fight they'd ever been in at the end.

Oh just remembered if I thought a fight was going much too easy then from the well of demons would spring a... Demon, who would then rush to whichever combat the PCs were winning and attempt to turn the tide. I did this at least twice and introed some nasty bad guys.

Cheers Paul

 

[Kwalish Kid]

I really like the Well.

I did not like the skill challenge and I really limited it, thought I like the idea of skill challenges in general.

However, I liked the rooms. The PCs got into and out of the rooms fairly well. There was a lot of variety in the rooms too. I spiced things up by taking out most of the demons and replacing them with minion wraiths that were minotaur souls (some 4th level minion wraiths with the minotaur's charging ability, I think) and some other things that seemed to fit the themes. I think I changed the demons in the blood room to some kind of ooze demons but I called them blood demons.

The final fight, with the traps and the dragon, went embarassingly well for the PCs. Their controller controlled like you wouldn't believe and locked up the dragon right in the path of the doomsphere. The doomsphere kept knocking the dragon down and the PCs kept it in place or slowed with a variety of powers. Additionally, the PCs made it to the skeleton trap area of the map really, really quickly and destroyed the skeletons immediately.

The one thing that happened on my side (wink) though is that I killed on PC by pushing him into the well. I did not realize that the Well was supposed to be 100' deep, so I decided to let the PC trade action point for another chance to save, which he did. I hate killing PCs by cheesy traps like that, and had I told him that the pit was 100' deep, I am sure he wouldn't have gone there.

The Pcs were pretty beaten up by the time they got to the dragon, so I was expecting some PC death from straight-up damage, but because of the controller, this did not happen.

Yet another example in the games I play in of how powerful the Wizard class is.

 

[Jack99]

The point of the skill challenge is so that the players can prove they are worthy to enter, right? It's been more than a year since I ran it, so can't recall the details. What I do recall is that the fighter had a brilliant idea. When the ghosts asked for him to prove his skill to them, instead of trying to impress them with athletics or whatnot, he went north (?), to the big boar chained in a room, freed the boar and guided it back towards the ghosts, then told the others to stand back and fought it on his own.