Rust Monster Lovin'

[I'm A Banana]

Frankly, I'm thinking giving the rust monster a sunder attack makes the most sense, since it works based on an existing rule set, instead of inventing something new. Building onto sunder (with a special ability that lets it work against armor, too) would make it easier to adjust the damage a rust monster could do, at the discretion of the DM. Those who want items to be gone, gone, gone could just throw a "greater rust monster" at them. Those who want a more graduated way of approaching it could go with a "lesser rust monster" or something.

This is The Correct Answer. You get a "I'm Not Affraid of Change" merit badge.

I don't really think this is a nostalgia issue. My first response when reading the new rust monster was not, "that's not the rust monster I grew up with!", but rather, "oh great, more record keeping." Do we really need to tack on more bonuses and penalties on the fly like this? If there is a fault with 3.X it is the large amount of tiny modifiers to keep track of.

The 10 minute regeneration didn't sit well either. This seems an unnecessary change. Like most monsters, if the DM doesn't care for the effect it will have on a game, that DM won't use it. I really don't think this has much todo with being a newbie or grognard either. It is pretty clear in the MM write-up what a rust monster does. Hell, its name is RUST MONSTER!

I agree with much of this. I don't see the change as unnessecary though. As written, the rust monster is a very bad, very petty, very "A-Hole" kind of monster. It has a huge blast radius, it stops parties in their tracks, and it has nothing threatening about it. The revised rust monster preserves the interesting encounter angle (having the mage or barbarian or rogue beat up on it) without making it an all-or-nothing, rock-paper-scissors kind of battle. It's not a perfect revision, but it's heaps better than the one given already.

No, it's not nostalgia, its "nerfing" a monster that has no really teeth but has one amazingly wicked ability.

The monster wan't nerfed. A single ability was. The monster is actually tougher than it was before. It forces a hard choice, because when the wizard goes up to wail on it, it's potent bite will mean he can't stay up there for long. And you better hope the rogue can climb and listen and spot, because otherwise, the thing is going to sneak up on you five minutes later and smack you around a bit, too.

The monster is a harder beast to defeat. However, it's not as likely to bring the game to a screeching halt. And that is WONDERFUL. That's why this new rust monster is going to see itself in my games tomorrow.

 

[Mycanid]

Heh, funny how easy the "it's all rose-colored nostalgia" explanation is brought up towards those posters who simply object against changing a monster in order to minimize the "risk" that facing said monster entails.

There's simply a few completely different game philosophies at play here. One is largely composed of older players who have learned, and are used to, taking any situation and try to adapt their characters to it. Rust monster? Let those without iron deal with it, distract it, avoid it, charm it. Lost your sword/shield/armor to it? Grab a new weapon, improvise armor or shield, work with what you got, or re-equip by taking stuff from other inhabitants of the dungeon you're in. Or retreat to town and get new equipment. All part and parcel of standard dungeon crawling back then. So most of them don't see a problem in the rust monster as is.

Another is composed of those players who see an inherent fun-ruining factor in losing your equipment (more so than losing your PC in some cases ), and who'd rather have the game designer or the DM deal with the "problem", either by offering "amendments" for the lost equipment, or by changing the effect the monster (spell effect/special ability) has in the first place.

I don't see much nostalgia in those two differing points of view. And yes, I realize that one simply can choose to ignore that one monster, but it was offered as a demonstration of the direction WotC R&D takes, too...and since 3.5, that direction didn't appeal to many, and those are simply giving their feedback about what they feel is pulling the teeth from their favorite game.

I think this is a stunning analysis of the whole issue being batted about in this thread!

Many thanks Raven!

Hey there Whizbang - I posted earlier that I don't think a sunder feat really would work with what a rust monster is doing, and I still hold to that, but I DO like the idea being tossed around of different types of Rust Monsters.

I think this may be a good "in between" road for many of the Dm's and players out there. Heck, they have different types of lots of other types of monsters, why not variation in the species of the Rust Monster? Or even worse, magically altered/breeding techniqued Rust Monsters?

 

[Fishbone]

The only time I've ever seen one was a Huge one. They have a bite attack that does 1d8+12 damage a pop. Thats not something I sic Mr 7d4+21 on, no sir. I don't have problems with other monsters that destroy gear like oozes, destrachans, disenchanters etc.
Check out the DC on a Gargantuan Black Pudding, DC 27 for Challenge Rating 10. What I have a problem with, as stated before, is the ludicrously high Reflex save needed to avoid losing a 4-6000 GP piece of equipment. DC 27, DC 29 with Ability Focus, is just about impossible for a level 6 to 8 clanger or sword and boarder to overcome. If they don't roll a 19 or 20 they are boned.
I just don't see why this fix is needed. Maybe take away the +4 to the DC but leave it as it is. Was there some outcry to nerf the Rust Monster into the ground and add even more titchy plus this minus that to the game that I just wasn't aware of?

 

[The_Gneech]

No, 3e is changing to try and adhere to the idea that sudden, unwanted, permenant hiccups in the campaign are bad. Generally speaking, this is true. If you use one as-is Rust Monster, you're paying for it for WEEKS of real-life time. That's a long time for one monster to dominate the game, and it's generally not fun to have to just suffer for a couple of sessions because people like rewards.

Whaaaat?

A rust monster is going to, on a really good day, eat at the most two pieces of equipment, unless the players are so dense as to stand there and keep letting it get them. And all you have to do is wander down the hall until you find a pack of kobolds and snag their equipment, fer crying out loud. This idea that a rust monster is in any way a game breaker is just nuts.

For most people, though, it's going to be a problem. People game with friends, people game as a social activity, having fun with a couple of buds is key to the game's appeal, and has to be emphasized going forward. If the game's rules anger someone enough to just abandon the game, then the game is going to suffer, wither, and die.

A player who is enough of a spoiled brat to storm out of the house because a rust monster ate his shield, is a player you're better off not inviting back to the table. Seriously.

-The Gneech

 

[Fishbone]

An item destroying creature with a high DC isn't without precedent or peers. The rust monster is just the most egregious because it is hard for somebody in the low levels, 4-7, to find an equal weapon. I sincerely doubt that Kobolds are going to have medium +1 or +2 greatswords or medium +1 full plate or medium sized metal shields of decent enchantment.
Edit: Kobold are bad mothers, now. Every DM I've played under either runs the things as cannon fodder or reptilian Rambos. With Races of the Dragon and a DM set out to "prove" that he can kick your candy backsides with the lowly Kobold you are in for a long night. I ran a session like that and the players will never look at kobolds the same way ever again.

 

[el-remmen]

I wonder if the split of opinion on this issue can be split along the same lines of those prefer time adventuring working towards a numerical improvement in their character and those who like adventure for the sake of adventure and the advancement is just a common result of that.

The reason I say this is because when I see "it will take weeks in game or a few sessions to recover from that and we won't be advancing, just moving to catch back up" (I used quotes, but I am paraphrasing, sue me ) given as a reason why the rust monster as is is not a good thing, while I see those extra sessions as more opportunity to explore my character and have the DM create more twists and turns and adversity to overcome, it leads me to conclude that.

Neither one is better than the other, I just prefer the latter.

 

[Imp]

It's still a major disruption. What if the PC's manage to get lucky and their equipment isn't damaged? Suddenly that windfall is potentially game-breaking. What if they get unlucky and get damaged far beyond what that windfall was to compensate for? Suddenly, they're giving up on the game and calling it too hard.

Then you make the windfall vanish prior to the PCs happening upon it and save it for another time perhaps! That's the beauty of D&D, you aren't a robot and you haven't programmed a module where you can't change things as necessary. And you don't necessarily have to re-write entire adventures, statblocks and all: just add more loot to the next encounter, have the something lay there on the freshly-killed corpses of another group somewhere if you want things to be easier, etc., etc.

 

[Knight Otu]

And you don't necessarily have to re-write entire adventures, statblocks and all: just add more loot to the next encounter, have the something lay there on the freshly-killed corpses of another group somewhere if you want things to be easier, etc., etc.

So in essence, the "old" rust monster coddled players by ensuring more loot?

 

[Mycanid]

The mushroom alchemist agrees with the frog bard on this one.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

The save is too easy as is. I'd bump the save to dc 30 or something. Or just get rid of the save altogether. if I was going to mess with the rust monster. Even 20th level characters should fear the rust monster. Is it fair? No, but there's nothing fair about venturing into an undeground setting full of beholders and dragons and rust monsters with a pointy stick to begin with.