Rust Monster Lovin'

[Soel]

Somewhat realted to this thread....

A couple of sessions ago, my players ran afoul of some Metallivore Grick. (template from Book of Templates 3.5 that eats metal as does a rust monster, except it has a breath weapon that affects metal items.) On the pc's approach, I had one of the gricks breathe a "warning" blast onto the metal floor, basically to display their capabilties, and also to try and convey that the gricks were more afraid of them than otherwise.

The pcs still advanced, and one of them found out, the hard way, that he should've left well enough alone. He only lost his armor. I didn't get any complaints out of character. He was still effective for the rest of the adventure.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Apologies if this particular concept has been mentioned somewhere between pages 2 and 8, because I've not read the entire thread.

But if *I* were going to redesign the rust monster, I'd make one very simple change to it.

It only affects non-magical metal.

At CR3 the party would probably have very little in the way of magical armour and weapons, but they would have some - the destruction of nonmagical armour and weapons is a costly setback, but OK. It also means that the CR3 rust monster basically is no threat to a 10th level party (which is as it should be).

If it is designed to be a low-level threat, make it a low level threat. That would be my Occams Razor solution.

(plus it gives the rat-bastard DMs the opportunity to team up a rust monster with targetted dispel magics to bring back fear to cocky high level adventurers )

 

[Belen]

Apologies if this particular concept has been mentioned somewhere between pages 2 and 8, because I've not read the entire thread.

But if *I* were going to redesign the rust monster, I'd make one very simple change to it.

It only affects non-magical metal.

At CR3 the party would probably have very little in the way of magical armour and weapons, but they would have some - the destruction of nonmagical armour and weapons is a costly setback, but OK. It also means that the CR3 rust monster basically is no threat to a 10th level party (which is as it should be).

If it is designed to be a low-level threat, make it a low level threat. That would be my Occams Razor solution.

(plus it gives the rat-bastard DMs the opportunity to team up a rust monster with targetted dispel magics to bring back fear to cocky high level adventurers )

Now that is an excellent suggestion and something that feels right. A magical blade is immune to a natural ability because it is an unnatural weapon.

 

[BlueBlackRed]

But if *I* were going to redesign the rust monster, I'd make one very simple change to it.

It only affects non-magical metal.

This is the best alternate option I've seen yet.
It allows you to create larger versions of the rust monster without having to worry much about sucking too much gp-value from the party's coffers.

Also, if everyone is so worried about the party's resources being seriously hurt by a rust monsters, then change their treasure listing from "none" to 200% gems.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

Apologies if this particular concept has been mentioned somewhere between pages 2 and 8, because I've not read the entire thread.

But if *I* were going to redesign the rust monster, I'd make one very simple change to it.

It only affects non-magical metal.

At CR3 the party would probably have very little in the way of magical armour and weapons, but they would have some - the destruction of nonmagical armour and weapons is a costly setback, but OK. It also means that the CR3 rust monster basically is no threat to a 10th level party (which is as it should be).

If it is designed to be a low-level threat, make it a low level threat. That would be my Occams Razor solution.

(plus it gives the rat-bastard DMs the opportunity to team up a rust monster with targetted dispel magics to bring back fear to cocky high level adventurers )

Or simply recycle the Basic D&D rust monster, which doesn't rust metal things that hit it, but only those it hits, which steals plusses from enchanted stuff if they don't make their "saving throw" (10% per plus back then) to avoid the effect. Change the Reflex save to a Fortitude save (it's about transformation effets after all) and grant enchanted stuff a +2 bonus per +1 of magical bonus to the saving throw, and reduce the save DC from 20 (slightly overblown anyway) to 15. If the save is failed, the enchanted thingie loses one +1 bonus, if it's made, it suffers no ill effects whatsoever.

 

[Jedi_Solo]

But if *I* were going to redesign the rust monster, I'd make one very simple change to it.

It only affects non-magical metal.

That I like. The monster should still have a Sidebar of Warning since my main problem with the critter is the lack of a warning shot. The ogre is itself the warning shot. The big bug isn't and the city guard that got sent with the adventurerers by his captain is very unlikely to have odd knowledge skills.

The DM is going to have to know that (assuming the Rust Monster isn't the 'big bad' of the session) the final encounter of the session may swing wildly if the Rust Monster encounter... doesn't go well for the PCs. They may have all metal weapons and metal armor can easily be heavy and/or expensive to have many backups carried with you.

I'm not that concerned about the player that complains about the standard long sword that was bought at the last town. I'm not worried about the player that complains because they don't have a backup weapon.

I will be the player that complains about having lost the weapon that was attached to the Ancestral Relic feat, the devine relic attached to the True Believer feat or the Kensai that just lost the weapon the entire PrC is based around and I will speak the DM if my Item Familar goes *poof*. I put feats and class abilities into those items and lost them without a warning shot. There are lot more class featers/abilities ties to weapons in 3.X than there were in earlier additions.

Before I get called a coddled player - My first choice would actually be hp damage on the weapon and even giving the critter Improved Disarm. Still keep the finality of the item's fate but still give the PC the chance to 'not use the good stuff' for this encounter. You can bet I will be beating on the critter with my non-Improved Unarmed Strike fists if it came to that to... not save my weapon but save my Ancestral Relic.

(plus it gives the rat-bastard DMs the opportunity to team up a rust monster with targetted dispel magics to bring back fear to cocky high level adventurers )

Ouch. That I do like. By the time the party gets to that level and encounter in the session the group will likely recognise the critters (I am assuming that a few stray Rust Monsters will have been run into in that adventure here). That will be the critter's warning shot.

 

[BluSponge]

But if *I* were going to redesign the rust monster, I'd make one very simple change to it.

It only affects non-magical metal.

Eh. This change still misses the point, and fundamentally changes the nature of the encounter. In fact, I'd go as far as to say if Mike's redesign is "guilty of coddling whiny players," this version is doubly so. It means there will come a time when rust monsters are no threat at all. The fighter just hands the rogue his +1 sword and *poof*. The party doesn't really have to change tactics at all. It's just another monster to be killed with the standard roll init, roll to hit formula. ::YAWN::

Or simply recycle the Basic D&D rust monster, which doesn't rust metal things that hit it, but only those it hits, which steals plusses from enchanted stuff if they don't make their "saving throw" (10% per plus back then) to avoid the effect. Change the Reflex save to a Fortitude save (it's about transformation effets after all) and grant enchanted stuff a +2 bonus per +1 of magical bonus to the saving throw, and reduce the save DC from 20 (slightly overblown anyway) to 15. If the save is failed, the enchanted thingie loses one +1 bonus, if it's made, it suffers no ill effects whatsoever.

Sorry, Geron. While this isn't as bad, it accomplishes much the same thing as Mike's redesign, albeit with permanent side effects instead of being temporary. That keeps the encounter style relatively consistent, forcing the PCs to change tactics, but allows the PCs to weigh their options a bit. Hedge their bets as it were. A rogue and barbarian can make short work of this critter before it's init even comes up. My point is, if we must have a kinder, gentler rust monster, this puppy is from the same school as Mike's redesign, and there's no point in complaining about the one while advocating the other. It would only be a point of taste.

Really (and Mike could answer this), did no one ever think of...oh, I dunno, RAISING THE CR? First ed rust monsters are 5 hit die critters, which means they are aimed at moderate level adventurers and not newbies. If the problem with the rust monster is it's "blast radius" than that seems like the most logical conclusion. Or what about raising the weapon save to 20% per plus (which would make that +5 holy avenger pretty resistant to its effects, but +1-2 weapons would still have a significant chance of being snuffed). Neither makes the rust monster more fun, but do change the weight of the encounter significantly.

Tom

 

[Knight Otu]

Really (and Mike could answer this), did no one ever think of...oh, I dunno, RAISING THE CR? First ed rust monsters are 5 hit die critters, which means they are aimed at moderate level adventurers and not newbies. If the problem with the rust monster is it's "blast radius" than that seems like the most logical conclusion.

While I'm sure that is a possibility - it would likely involve far more work than the article had space for. Increasing the CR without making the creature tougher effectively turns it into a wimpy, harmless critter for its CR. It probably would involve giving more HD, reach, perhaps even a fly speed (rust fly).

 

[gizmo33]

I will be the player that complains about having lost the weapon that was attached to the Ancestral Relic feat, the devine relic attached to the True Believer feat or the Kensai that just lost the weapon the entire PrC is based around and I will speak the DM if my Item Familar goes *poof*. I put feats and class abilities into those items and lost them without a warning shot. There are lot more class featers/abilities ties to weapons in 3.X than there were in earlier additions.

Your weapons can still be broken/lost from all kinds of situations - having them knocked out of your hands when you fall into a bottomless lake, taken from you when you're captured, having them sundered, etc.

I don't see a problem with redesigning rust damage so that it takes into account a weapon's magical properties (doing damage to hitpoints and/or hardness, for example). I don't see a problem with reconsidering what sorts of metal the rust monster damages (does a +5 sword really rust?) I also wouldn't object to an "Appendix: Statements of the Obvious" that warned DMs that a rust monster could destroy plot-items such as ancestral weapons. I'd also like to see a spell that reverses rust damage to weapons.

Otherwise, I'd like to say that it's NOT NOSTALGIA that makes some of us consider DnD to be, in part, a resource management game. Plenty of us still enjoy the part of the game where you find AND lose stuff, carry back up items and equipment, etc. This idea of a guarranteed X gp value of equipment is incompatible with this type of DnD game.

Not all DnD games have to be resources management games of this type. Oriental Adventures, for example, recommends that the DM reconsider the "loot the body" pattern in typical DnD - that's fine. But the Rust Monster comes from this style of gaming. I don't see the point in redesigning the rust monster. If you don't like rust, don't use the rust monster.

It's as if WotC decided they didn't like sex in their game and rather than make the Nymph optional, they decide to make the Nymph a clothes-wearing creature with good knowledge skills and an interesting personality. What is the point?

 

[Henry]

...You chose not to take knowledge: dungeoneering or bardic lore or whichever other divinations might help. You made the decision to not have back up weapons or armor. You lost initiative or foolishly entered combat with a creature you know absolutely nothing about. You didn't buff your AC enough to avoid being hit.

I swear someone could make one fantastic Flash animation from this in the form of one of those drunk driving "60 seconds" commercials.

A bunch of adveturers are running around silly, the camera is pivoting chaotically, profanities flying, someone in the background screaming, "MY SWORD! MY SWORD! IT, MY SWORD!!!" It ends with a dead rust monster, an exhausted mage, and a fighter weeping in the foreground...