Rust Monster Lovin'

[Glyfair]

But anyway, this article is just a bit of mental exercise and even if it were to "officially" change - well, D&D rules an organic and living thing like a language - it changes over time - but it doesn't keep you from talking the way you like.

True, but you can get to a point where you are rarely understood because very few people use language the way you do. Of course, that takes a long, long time.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

And how come people are claiming the fighter is suddenly useless because he lost his sword? I wasn't aware that characters are only allowed to carry one weapon on them during a dungeon crawl. I kinda remember dragging around secondary and tertiary weapons with my fighters, not to mention ranged weapons and spears. This thread is a bit weird, and the revision of the good old rust monster is a bit weird, too.

 

[gizmo33]

Perhaps 10 rounds after I purchase the Monster Manual 4.0, the rust monster's stats will revert themselves to the traditional ones. In this case, I can see the benefits of not making bad things permanent.

 

[mearls]

For me the thing is that this re-tooling of the rust monster reinforces my problem with baseline 3.x, which is the emphasis on the importance of your stuff - which personally I cannot stand.

I think that's a bigger, more interesting point.

1e and 2e had a sort of, "Close your eyes and pretend it isn't a problem" approach to magic items.

3e regulated magic items, but perhaps too much, or it made magic items too much of a percentage of a PC's power.

In 1e and 2e, the rust monster caused problems, but the game just ignored them. In 3e, the game tries to address them.

There's a sweet spot between making the rust monster pointlessly easy and making it overpowering. There's something cool about striking fear in the warrior's heart for his weapons and armor. It's fun to have that fear play out in the game, but you don't want it to be a binary thing. Once you've lost your armor, the tension is gone.

That's why I really like the idea of tying destruction to the penalty. It keeps the threat around for a bit and keeps the issue in question for several rounds.

Anyway, like I mentioned before there will be a future column where I go back and look at the feedback and talk about it. If I can think of an easy way to put together a development by gamers sort of thing, that'd be cool too.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I'd say the core belief of not inconviencing a player too much is part of the 3.x system. It sure seemed that way when I ran it for 2 years. Good or bad that depends on what you want out of the game.

I'd say that's a problem with your players.

My group seems to go out of its way to put themselves in mortal peril and worse, even when metagame knowledge tells them to run like hell.

 

[Glyfair]

One thing I will say Mike, I think this series has done it's job very well (and it's miniatures counterpart). It's encouraged discussion, and has people thinking of issues from a design POV. They might disagree with the conclusions or suggestions, but it certainly makes for interesting discussion.

 

[gizmo33]

And how come people are claiming the fighter is suddenly useless because he lost his sword?

Yea, and who cares if he IS useless for the moment? Somebody in the party better think of something, even if it's just to sharpen a stick. Isn't the game about solving problems? Isn't it about teamwork?

In my day (which could have been last week), the party cleric might fall in a big pit, the party wizard could be feebleminded, someone could fall into a river and have to shuck off their armor.

PCs equipment is some sort of sacred cow? In fact, by implication it seems that "set-backs" to a characters effectiveness (confusion, wandering monsters, getting lost, bad combat choices) could all be called into question.

This is the point at which 3E design principles are running amok. This already happened in several places in the rules, I guess this is just another step. All adversity seems capable of being defined as "un-fun" and I can't figure out where this will stop before all adversity has been sanitized out of the rules.

I'll try to stop now since I don't want to solo-adventurer through the edition wars dungeon.

 

[Scribble]

I'd say that's a problem with your players.

My group seems to go out of its way to put themselves in mortal peril and worse, even when metagame knowledge tells them to run like hell.

Hey did you steal my group?

I run a game where sometimes there will be encounters that they just shouldn't deal with yet.

3rd level, and they are in an area close to where a black dragon lives... It flies over head but they manage to stay hidden... But then:

"Dude... dragons have a lot of treasure..."

"Yeah... but also a lot of damage dealin..."

"Yeah... But I'm just sayin."

"Dude... we do not want to fight a dragon! But... yeah... They DO have a lot of treasure..."

"I know you're right. We shouldnt... I'm just sayin..."

"I guess it wouldn't hurt to... look..."


Luckily thry didn't find it.

 

[mearls]

One thing I will say Mike, I think this series has done it's job very well (and it's miniatures counterpart). It's encouraged discussion, and has people thinking of issues from a design POV. They might disagree with the conclusions or suggestions, but it certainly makes for interesting discussion.

Thanks. That really is the point of this series of articles. People should think about their campaigns, think about what they find fun, and use that to improve their games.

DMing is an art, craft, and science. I'd really love to foster a culture of DM as game designer, where proficiency in design knowledge is valued just as much as rules knowledge, roleplay ability, and so on. I want people to understand why they like stuff. I want expert DMs to bend and fold the game as they wish, and I want them to do that in a way that makes the game more fun.

I like to think of it as analogous to painting miniatures. A big part of the fun in miniatures gaming is learning how to paint, developing new painting techniques, and taking pride in that cool miniature you painted. D&D is a game of the imagination. It's a chance for the average person to do something really creative and share it with others. That's not something modern society leaves much room for.

The thing is, if the guy next to you is painting his orcs blue, don't hate on him.

 

[cildarith]

I'll try to stop now since I don't want to solo-adventurer through the edition wars dungeon.

It will be okay, gizmo. This dungeon has been certified as safe by OSHA and Mike Mearls. You have nothing to fear. The monters won't bite you, and you (or your gear) won't be inconvenienced or harmed in any way...