Ryan Dancey speaks - the Most Successful Year for Fantasy RPGaming ever. However...
- Thread starter MerricB
- Start date
Ironically, while reading this thread, dad told me that he'd reinstalled WoW, and that my sister had created some characters for us 'rated on how pretty or ugly they were'. Inspired, I mucked around for a bit as a night elf druid (I've already played WoW for about a week with another account).
Now, D&D is not WoW, and doesn't have to be, and maybe cannot be, but here's the advantages of WoW over D&D. However, for academic purposes, I've outlined a potential 'fix' so that D&D could better emulate WoW.
1) More choice. What? Heresy! The thing is, though, in WoW I can go to whatever town I want, follow whatever path I want. I can do quests, I can not do quests. I can do some quests but not others... in D&D I have more options, but only when I follow the DM's basic adventure plot. That's important.
Potential Fix: Publish adventures that are more modular. Provide more information on regions so characters can go XP-farming if they really want to. I think Ptolus might be a step in the right direction, with more detailed districts and all that.
2) Being able to See your character. Yes, I know there's imagination, and that maybe your idea of an elf is different to my idea of an elf, but there is something really compelling in being able to look your character in the eye.
Potential Fix: I've mucked around with Neverwinter Nights, and it would not be difficult to create a 'character generator' similar to that, allowing you to customise your PC's appearance and equipment.
3) Pretty Worlds: Interestingly enough, I felt nostalgic for Morrowind when I was playing WoW. "That's a pretty flower," I thought, "A DM would never bother describing such a small detail as that... but in Morrowind I'd be able to pix it". It's very easy to be immersed in a world that's visual and aural.
Potential Fix: I understand, in 2000/2001, a company created a bunch of d20 System adventures that had actual 3D effects. That could be a nice compromise - showing your players on your laptop what their characters are seeing. Not something an individual DM could cook up, but as a product...
4) No Information Overload: In WoW you pretty much create your character (character creation is significantly easier, as well), get a 2 minute crash-course on your race's history, and then you start playing. In D&D there's a good 300 pages to take in (plus information on PrC and magic items if you're precocious)... and perhaps 10 of those pages have anything to do with RP. Levelling up in WoW is literally effortless.
Potential Fix: I suppose the D&D Basic Set fills this niche... but maybe very simple, very cheap 'how to play an elven rogue' booklets could help.
5) Instant Gratification: I levelled up more in one one hour session on WoW than any one of my characters ever has in D&D. I learnt new skills, got new items that were significantly better than my old items, and killed heaps of creatures. Combat is quick and, for the most part, easy. HP and MP (magic points) regenerate really quickly - no messing about camping and deciding who takes what watch and whether the spellcaster can split up his eight hours of rest or not.
Potential Fix: More generous distribution of magic items.
6) Simple Spellcasting and Complicated Fighting: Spellcasting is really simple. You just keep firing off one of about three spells (to be fair, the amount of spells you learn increases as you level). Sure, you might run out of MP eventually, but you also don't have to worry about AoOs and interrupted spells just take 50% longer to cast. Spellcasting is really pretty much worry-free. Playing a combatant, however, is a bit different. You've got special abilities you can use - not complicated attack maneuvers like trips or bull rushes, but just attacks where you kind of piroutte (Sp?) and do a bit more damage. Sure, mature role-players might have evocative combats with intricate historically accurate tactical maneuvers, but most of us just 'attack the dragon with our axe'.
Potential Fix: Warlocks (simple spellcasting) and ritual warriors (complicated combat). Advice to players on how to role-play evocative combat.
7) The Monsters look Cool: Admittedly, D&D has lots of cool monsters, but WoW has interesting animals. Thistle boars, crag boars and that-other-type-of-boar-I-can't-remember-the-name-of all look different. That might seem superficial, but it goes a long way towards making each region of the world seem interesting and unique.
Potential Fix: Admitting that fantasy animals look different to RL animals. Pretty pictures of boars that [img=http://wizards.com/dnd/images/ff_gallery/50084.jpg]don't look exactly like RL boars.[/img]
8) WoW Gets You Hooked: You can pay $2 to pay WoW as a sample for 2 weeks. By that time, Blizzard counts on people being suitably hooked. I suppose D&D's equivalent is playing with a friend who teaches you D&D without having to go out and buy the books yourself.
Potential Fix: I don't know. Maybe one isn't needed. Maybe one is.
...
Look, there's a reason I've spent thousands on D&D and $2 on WoW. There's a reason why hundreds of thousands of people have spent hundreds on WoW and nothing on D&D. D&D will always be a niche product, but maybe that niche can grow. Maybe it can't.
I'm just saying, is all
Now, D&D is not WoW, and doesn't have to be, and maybe cannot be, but here's the advantages of WoW over D&D. However, for academic purposes, I've outlined a potential 'fix' so that D&D could better emulate WoW.
1) More choice. What? Heresy! The thing is, though, in WoW I can go to whatever town I want, follow whatever path I want. I can do quests, I can not do quests. I can do some quests but not others... in D&D I have more options, but only when I follow the DM's basic adventure plot. That's important.
Potential Fix: Publish adventures that are more modular. Provide more information on regions so characters can go XP-farming if they really want to. I think Ptolus might be a step in the right direction, with more detailed districts and all that.
2) Being able to See your character. Yes, I know there's imagination, and that maybe your idea of an elf is different to my idea of an elf, but there is something really compelling in being able to look your character in the eye.
Potential Fix: I've mucked around with Neverwinter Nights, and it would not be difficult to create a 'character generator' similar to that, allowing you to customise your PC's appearance and equipment.
3) Pretty Worlds: Interestingly enough, I felt nostalgic for Morrowind when I was playing WoW. "That's a pretty flower," I thought, "A DM would never bother describing such a small detail as that... but in Morrowind I'd be able to pix it". It's very easy to be immersed in a world that's visual and aural.
Potential Fix: I understand, in 2000/2001, a company created a bunch of d20 System adventures that had actual 3D effects. That could be a nice compromise - showing your players on your laptop what their characters are seeing. Not something an individual DM could cook up, but as a product...
4) No Information Overload: In WoW you pretty much create your character (character creation is significantly easier, as well), get a 2 minute crash-course on your race's history, and then you start playing. In D&D there's a good 300 pages to take in (plus information on PrC and magic items if you're precocious)... and perhaps 10 of those pages have anything to do with RP. Levelling up in WoW is literally effortless.
Potential Fix: I suppose the D&D Basic Set fills this niche... but maybe very simple, very cheap 'how to play an elven rogue' booklets could help.
5) Instant Gratification: I levelled up more in one one hour session on WoW than any one of my characters ever has in D&D. I learnt new skills, got new items that were significantly better than my old items, and killed heaps of creatures. Combat is quick and, for the most part, easy. HP and MP (magic points) regenerate really quickly - no messing about camping and deciding who takes what watch and whether the spellcaster can split up his eight hours of rest or not.
Potential Fix: More generous distribution of magic items.
6) Simple Spellcasting and Complicated Fighting: Spellcasting is really simple. You just keep firing off one of about three spells (to be fair, the amount of spells you learn increases as you level). Sure, you might run out of MP eventually, but you also don't have to worry about AoOs and interrupted spells just take 50% longer to cast. Spellcasting is really pretty much worry-free. Playing a combatant, however, is a bit different. You've got special abilities you can use - not complicated attack maneuvers like trips or bull rushes, but just attacks where you kind of piroutte (Sp?) and do a bit more damage. Sure, mature role-players might have evocative combats with intricate historically accurate tactical maneuvers, but most of us just 'attack the dragon with our axe'.
Potential Fix: Warlocks (simple spellcasting) and ritual warriors (complicated combat). Advice to players on how to role-play evocative combat.
7) The Monsters look Cool: Admittedly, D&D has lots of cool monsters, but WoW has interesting animals. Thistle boars, crag boars and that-other-type-of-boar-I-can't-remember-the-name-of all look different. That might seem superficial, but it goes a long way towards making each region of the world seem interesting and unique.
Potential Fix: Admitting that fantasy animals look different to RL animals. Pretty pictures of boars that [img=http://wizards.com/dnd/images/ff_gallery/50084.jpg]don't look exactly like RL boars.[/img]
8) WoW Gets You Hooked: You can pay $2 to pay WoW as a sample for 2 weeks. By that time, Blizzard counts on people being suitably hooked. I suppose D&D's equivalent is playing with a friend who teaches you D&D without having to go out and buy the books yourself.
Potential Fix: I don't know. Maybe one isn't needed. Maybe one is.
...
Look, there's a reason I've spent thousands on D&D and $2 on WoW. There's a reason why hundreds of thousands of people have spent hundreds on WoW and nothing on D&D. D&D will always be a niche product, but maybe that niche can grow. Maybe it can't.
I'm just saying, is all
Last edited:
Frostmarrow
First Post
Whizbang Dustyboots said:
I did look into the concept of DMing NWN at one point but never went with it. I was caught up making modules where no DMing was required (you got more downloads that way). For the right crowd DMing NWN certainly is a great thing.
Mercule
Adventurer
CRPGs are not TRPGs. They are not a subset. They are not an evolution. At best, they are an offshoot. Sure, there are some similarities, but they are not the same animal and should not be lumped together too tightly.
Really, the only relevance CRPGs have to TRPGs is how much business one drives to (or steals from) the other.
Really, the only relevance CRPGs have to TRPGs is how much business one drives to (or steals from) the other.
Whizbang Dustyboots
Gnometown Hero
How does "pix" in Morrowind differ from shooting screenshots in other videogames?
Thornir Alekeg
Albatross!
Just wanted to add my 2 cents. Not saying that WoW suxx of anything, I'm sure I would get just as hooked on WoW if I had the time (which is why I'm not doing it). I just want to provide my opinions on these points:
I think that is true for many groups, but is DM dependent.Khuxan said:
That's what my minis are for
Can't really argue with that.
WoW gives you a computer tutorial. In D&D I do the same for new players, easing them into the more complex issues.
Not always a good thing. I cherish the times I level up in D&D. I anticipate them eagerly and enjoy the leveling up process. If it becomes instant and easy, it just becomes, "hey, look! I did it again!"
Sorcerers seem to be simple spellcasters to me. Complicated fighting: I guess you haven't played with some of the people I have.
OK, again with the visuals, it isn't usually worth the effort for a DM to try and make cows look unique and the players understand they are just cows.
You kinda forgot the $40 to buy the software, and then how much per month? I spent less than $50 on D&D this year, and I'm the DM. Admittedly I didn't get to play very often this year, of course that's another plus for WoW - play when you want, not when your group can all schedule it.
MulhorandSage
First Post
CRPGs and TRPGs aren't things that should be lumped in the same category, at least not commercially. They're two tracks of entertainment that have developed on parallel paths, have overlapping audiences, and drawn from each other creatively - but you can say the same thing about fantasy movies too. You can't infer that TRPGs are a failure because they don't reach the same audience, anymore than you can call WoW a failure because it didn't match the 1 billion dollar plus worldwide theater/DVD/spinoff revenue of one of the Lord of the Rings movies; they're successful, or unsuccessful, on their own terms.
As for fun factor being the reason they're successful... sorry, but if you think running around Ironlag isn't just as frustrating and tedious (or more so) than a tabletop game, or getting drawn by your guildmates over to a stupid raid at Tarran Mill where the only thing that happens is you dying over and over and over again, or wandering around for hours when the clue for a quest points you in the wrong direction, or grinding an area for hours at a time... well, then you and I got different definitions of fun. The advantage of computer RPGs is convenience (for MMORGs) and focus (for single player RPGs), and audio-visual. GMing is *hard*, and so's putting together a good group and keeping it together. But this doesn't negate the advantages of tabletop play; it complements them.
Each form does things well, and analyzing the advantages of one form over another is an interesting exercise. On the other hand, running around and saying "look how well they're doing and you're not" is, at best, a rather spiteful thing to do.
As for fun factor being the reason they're successful... sorry, but if you think running around Ironlag isn't just as frustrating and tedious (or more so) than a tabletop game, or getting drawn by your guildmates over to a stupid raid at Tarran Mill where the only thing that happens is you dying over and over and over again, or wandering around for hours when the clue for a quest points you in the wrong direction, or grinding an area for hours at a time... well, then you and I got different definitions of fun. The advantage of computer RPGs is convenience (for MMORGs) and focus (for single player RPGs), and audio-visual. GMing is *hard*, and so's putting together a good group and keeping it together. But this doesn't negate the advantages of tabletop play; it complements them.
Each form does things well, and analyzing the advantages of one form over another is an interesting exercise. On the other hand, running around and saying "look how well they're doing and you're not" is, at best, a rather spiteful thing to do.
Whizbang Dustyboots
Gnometown Hero
No one's being spiteful, though, least of all Ryan Dancey. The question is if there's a way to use the success of WoW to help D&D.MulhorandSage said:
JohnNephew
First Post
Steel_Wind said:
It strikes me as an enormous strategic opportunity missed. It may be worth noting that it is also the reason the Peter Adkison quit WotC -- he was incredibly dismayed by Hasbro's decision to sell off all the electronic rights, perhaps because he foresaw the potential of a D&D game in the vein of World of Warcraft.
-John Nephew
President, Atlas Games
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